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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires III Discussion » AoK pop system vrs AoM.
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Topic Subject:AoK pop system vrs AoM.
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Lord_Cyrus
Squire
posted 01-22-05 11:01 PM CT (US)         
Which one do you guys think AoE III should use? I don't see how the AoK system has any advantages over AoM. In AoM units can counter two ways instead of one. This makes the game much deeper in that regard. Some people argue that this makes the armies to small but that can easily be fixed by making the overall pop cap higher.

Lord Cyrus

[This message has been edited by Lord_Cyrus (edited 01-22-2005 @ 11:03 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
The Mace
Cavalier
(id: mace windu9d9)
posted 01-23-05 00:01 AM CT (US)     1 / 68       
I personally hate AoM's pop method. It's too limiting.

Mace
Lord_Cyrus
Squire
posted 01-23-05 00:37 AM CT (US)     2 / 68       
How is it limiting? The only reason the pop cap is lower than AoK is because of crap comps.

Lord Cyrus
four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 01-23-05 01:36 AM CT (US)     3 / 68       
It's more limiting because...uh... *thinks* ...you can't build as many units.
Aro
AoKH Dictator
posted 01-23-05 01:39 AM CT (US)     4 / 68       
Are you referring to the fact that some units count as 2 in AoM?

» Your attractive master.
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Lord_Cyrus
Squire
posted 01-23-05 02:08 AM CT (US)     5 / 68       

Quote:

It's more limiting because...uh... *thinks* ...you can't build as many units.

Like I said before that can be fixed by having a higher pop cap. True you cant build as many powerful units as weak ones but that adds twice as much depth to the counter system. It also helps keep weaker units viable for the entire game.


Lord Cyrus
Talon Karrde
Squire
posted 01-23-05 03:01 AM CT (US)     6 / 68       

Quote:

I personally hate AoM's pop method. It's too limiting.


yes.
why? only 10 houses and then you have to go expand to settlements, and even if you've expanded to every single settlement then you can only have a possible maximum of 200. and that's not all that likely, you'll probably have no more than 140 or so. not to mention that myth units take up 2 pop spaces, and heroes take up something along the lines of 4, don't they?

so, aom pop system is bad bad bad bad.


Bah.
JackalRat
HG Alumnus
(id: BrandNewCar)
posted 01-23-05 11:53 AM CT (US)     7 / 68       

Quote:

I personally hate AoM's pop method. It's too limiting.


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[This message has been edited by BrandNewCar (edited 01-23-2005 @ 11:54 AM).]

WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-23-05 01:47 PM CT (US)     8 / 68       
i think a 200 pop is good. i can't see how the hell u can go beyond a pop of 125 in inter game or higher (maybe in team game full with crappy player that just want peace). unless u guy r playig peace for like a given time (which is boring n gay).
Roir
Squire
posted 01-23-05 10:10 PM CT (US)     9 / 68       
I like AoM's method, but it's primative. It's not well though out as many things are in AoM.

Quote:

why? only 10 houses and then you have to go expand to settlements, and even if you've expanded to every single settlement then you can only have a possible maximum of 200.

It's 300 total. Things do take up more than one pop space, but this allows for balenced gameplay.(except, it's not very balenced)

In this game you can easily manipulate standards that allow you to make 200 of any unit. (castle blood is a good example, so is michi, to a less extent)

I think it's a great system, just needs to be worked on(which wont happen, so it's screwd)

Settlements instead of houses is actually kinda cool, it forces you to get more buildings that make peasents.

In this way a AoM(titans) is encouraging booming.

The whole concept behind AoM is that they are trying to satisfy people's inexistant longing for "having fun" by stimulating large battles, this worked in a way because you start battling in the game, and that's all you do from there on out, and it's whoever gets the stronger army and starts to push the other player back, there is still raiding and stuff, but that's the gist of it, battling.(norse's favor generation is an example of a cause for attacking)

MUs and titans are for added "excitement," (they don't always sever their purpose very well) but alter the standard of the game on each map in a certain way.

Quote:

It's more limiting because...uh... *thinks* ...you can't build as many units.

You can have 300 set animals, the one-pop ones :-p, I think egyptian and greek vills are also 1-pop, there are other things, but I'm not sure, it actually can fairly balence to around 200 units if you do it right, but you can't get 300 elephants at a time, sorry.

[This message has been edited by roir (edited 01-23-2005 @ 10:11 PM).]

ajaxthegreater
Squire
posted 01-23-05 11:16 PM CT (US)     10 / 68       
I think it should be AoM, but settlements give more population limit.
Also, I think that if AoEIII's total pop-limit is in the thousands (like in American Conquest, and like some people want), then ships should take about 200, and ALL other military units should take 2. (Even though some soldiers weren't as well-fed as normal citizens.) I personally want the pop-limit to be at a maximum of 400.

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Chino
Squire
(id: hairic)
posted 01-23-05 11:32 PM CT (US)     11 / 68       
Should go back to one pop for all units, that way it gets easier to have a balanced game because you won't have to consider the value of pop space with all the other factors that go into making good counters (unit cost, production time, cost of the building, build time, and unit stats).

(Not saying it won't ever work to have multiple pop units, just saying it'll be harder to balance a game with them).

petard_rusher
Squire
posted 01-24-05 05:28 AM CT (US)     12 / 68       
whatever they do you should be able to build big armies like in AOK that were impossible to get in AOM (you can only get a big army AFTER the other guy is already dead). But since ES seems to be so concerned about the graphics of their game we should expect pop limits to go down, not up . ES has already said that they think the most you should play in multiplayer is 4, and the pop limits will also probably come down with the player limit. So, gone are the days of the huge battles of AOK since apparently all the nubs care more about shiny buildings and reflective water then they do about large armies and good gameplay?
WhoAskedU
Squire
posted 01-24-05 07:20 AM CT (US)     13 / 68       

Quote:

we should expect pop limits to go down...

Why does everyone have to be so dang pessimistic? Ensembles has already said that the game plays optimally at 2v2, yes. However, did you also know that they said the population limit would also be much larger than in AoK?

Quoted from From IGN Interview with Ensembles:

IGNPC: We know that a lot of players have called for higher population limits. Are you considering raising it for this next game?

Ensemble: While this isn't a game about Napoleonics (we're strictly New World focused), we know that the 1800s is a time period for which players have an expectation for huge armies. So the short answer is yes.


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•••winner of "2002 AoM Forum's Coolest Name Award"•••
•••••••Another Fabulous Post by WhoAskedU!!•••••••
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[This message has been edited by WhoAskedU (edited 01-24-2005 @ 07:21 AM).]

Talon Karrde
Squire
posted 01-24-05 09:08 AM CT (US)     14 / 68       

Quote:

It's 300 total.


is it? in my experience, its 200. but I never bothered getting titans, so maybe they bumped it up in that. or maybe there were a bunch of invisible settlements around. or maybe I just don't remember correctly

Bah.
dnwq
Squire
posted 01-24-05 10:09 AM CT (US)     15 / 68       
300 maximum per scenario, even if you have a few thousand houses lying around.

In normal gameplay, the only way to reach 300 is to have an insane amount of Settlements, so 200 (or less) is the practical limit. 300 represents the amount above which ES doesn't think AoM can handle competently, perhaps.

Talon Karrde
Squire
posted 01-24-05 12:26 PM CT (US)     16 / 68       
still...I believe I once (against a pathetic ai ) took every settlement, build every house and still only had 200...

Bah.
petard_rusher
Squire
posted 01-24-05 01:37 PM CT (US)     17 / 68       
its 300, but you cant ever get anymore then 200 (or is it 190?) units max, so even if you have every settlement on the map you still will not have as amny untis as you could have in AOK.

Quote:

So the short answer is yes.

Whenever the short answer is 'yes' it means the long answer is 'no'

Carro_LS
Squire
posted 01-24-05 01:58 PM CT (US)     18 / 68       

Quote:

So, gone are the days of the huge battles of AOK since apparently all the nubs care more about shiny buildings and reflective water then they do about large armies and good gameplay?

So true. The sad part is that Ensemble will always go for better graphics over gameplay because better graphics = better sales. I think they depend a lot on sales where the average joe goes to EB and goes "hey those graphics are cool, I think i'll buy that game."

From personally experience I can say with confidence that graphics quality gets old after you play the game for about 2 weeks. What makes or breaks a game is the gameplay. Gameplay essentially determines if the game is still going to be played 2 years after its release. Look at starcraft, AOE/AOK and even the FPS counter strike which are still played today by a large number of people. These games have survived this long on good gameplay and not graphics.

Personally I have been disappointed with the RTS releases of the past 3 years (EE, RON AOM). I think it has a lot to do with the transition from 2D - 3D games.

3D requires a lot more resources and PC power to run an RTS game then 2D (obviously) which has resulted in lower pop limits which in turn results in less fun (IMO).

I also find that the unit pathing in 3D is terrible compared to 2D games like AOK. I don't know if that is directly related to AOM and EE being 3D, but it seems like pathing has gone down hill with the introduction of 3D rts games.

My hopes are that technology has advanced enough since the introduction of 3D in RTS games so that RTS games can run as smoothly as AOK did in 2D, but in 3D.

I also hope that ES realizes that gameplay > graphics any day and that to get people to play their game for years after its release they need to focus a lot on the gameplay aspect of the game.

I do have faith in ES. They are a great company with many successfull AAA titles. I was a little disappointed with AOM, but everyone has their bad days and I think ES has learned from AOM and has enough experience in the RTS genre to provide another quality title like AOE/AOK. I am sure they are well aware of all the issues i've stated above and will most likely read this very post as they do monitor the forums for ideas, suggestions, and criticisms.

As far as this topic goes. AOE3 should follow the same population ideas as AOK. No settlements like AOM as it kills your strategic options (TC's built anywhere was awesome). No weighted population either as its a lot better where each unit = 1 population spot.

My 2 cents

WhoAskedU
Squire
posted 01-24-05 02:42 PM CT (US)     19 / 68       

Quote:

Whenever the short answer is 'yes' it means the long answer is 'no'

If you are a politician, you're correct. However, why do people read too much into everything just to make it sound so pessimistic? Think optimistically! They said you will have larger population than AoK!


At my signal unleash HELL.
God Bless America, Land of the Free!!!
•••winner of "2002 AoM Forum's Coolest Name Award"•••
•••••••Another Fabulous Post by WhoAskedU!!•••••••
People just complain about other people's Signatures because
they aren't smart enough to make their own.
WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-24-05 03:21 PM CT (US)     20 / 68       
IMO.the only reason people still play aok its mainly caz its one of the very few game that doesn't involve gun, tank,etc & that its sys req online its low (u can even play with a dial up). there is some gameplay. BTW, why does people hate ron? it have the best gameplay (no doubt).

for pop:

i think they shouldn't count ship in pop, it doesn't make sense. n it hurt a hell lot when u tryign to move ur army throught sea, n u wanna protect ur tranport, thus u need lots of ships, if the ship count in pop.ur army size will be reduce. and by the time it reaches to enemy land.....ur army is pretty much useless.

and i support the idea of 1 unit = 1 pop

for those who want a mega high pop cap such as 300+............how about having it as a options where u can select the pop size?

Blake
Squire
posted 01-24-05 08:39 PM CT (US)     21 / 68       
I'm on dialup and very rarely do I get to play because people are so discriminating against people who may cause lag, Annoys me :/...

As for the pop cap, I'm hoping it's like MEGA high, but I don't think it will. Also I agree, 1 unit = 1 pop > AoM system.

Blake


Come to the dark side, we have cookies...
Aro
AoKH Dictator
posted 01-24-05 08:54 PM CT (US)     22 / 68       
They should keep 1 pop per unit. It would make sense now that a) powerful myth units aren't being used (although there are heavier units, such as those awesome looking cannons, but they're counted as siege units that can attack units, like the Mangonel in AoK), and b) hopefully the units are not so powerful that they will force ES to make sure the number of them a player creates is limited.

This would also help in the pop limit category: if they can raise the limit to 300, hopefully it will actually be occupied by 300 units, rather than 100 2-pop units.


» Your attractive master.
» "Because I before E is a LIE!!!"

[This message has been edited by Aro (edited 01-24-2005 @ 08:57 PM).]

Talon Karrde
Squire
posted 01-25-05 09:46 AM CT (US)     23 / 68       

Quote:

So, gone are the days of the huge battles of AOK since apparently all the nubs care more about shiny buildings and reflective water then they do about large armies and good gameplay?


huge battles in aok? ehhh...right. never encountered any such 'huge' armies outside custom scns

Bah.
JackalRat
HG Alumnus
(id: BrandNewCar)
posted 01-25-05 09:55 AM CT (US)     24 / 68       
I've seen many/battled in many many multiplayer maps with huge battles... team games particularly I remember watching an Arch_Koven_ game where everyone chopped all trees on the map I think it was continental or coastal battles lasted 2 or so hours. But yeah theyres plenty of big battles in aok, you been on the zone? flush wars? :d.

Bill


Discworld Designer!
MY DESIGNS:-] 2002PTC Honourable mention, collaboration with Qazitory
Troll Bridge v1.3, Dragons Lair v1.1
Project Page
petard_rusher
Squire
posted 01-25-05 11:13 AM CT (US)     25 / 68       

Quoted from Talon Karrde:

huge battles in aok? ehhh...right. never encountered any such 'huge' armies outside custom scns

huge relative to AOM, you dont ever see 8 players with 120 military units each fighing in AOM...

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