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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires III Discussion » The Scenario Editor - A powerhouse or a user-friendly tool?
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Topic Subject:The Scenario Editor - A powerhouse or a user-friendly tool?
Deathmatch
Squire
(id: Darkmaster)
posted 01-09-03 05:40 PM CT (US)         
What do you think should be included in the scenario editor?

Are there new effects that you think would be a good addition to the triggers? More conditions? Do you think that user-friendliness should come first or should the power of the editor compensate for the lack of its ease-of-use?

There were many new additions in Age of Mythology, but they took out many, many parts of the editor that were present in The Conquerors, like the unit editing features. AoM even omitted conditions, like the number of kills, making it difficult to create blood maps, the most favorite custom scenarios played online. Even nowadays, 3 out of the 4 custom scenario rooms are full or almost full, and most, if not all, of the custom scenarios played use effects and conditions not available in AoM, but solely in AoK (or, possibly SW:GB and/or EE).

So, what do you think should be added/worked-upon/omitted/changed in the editor?


-1
AuthorReplies:
Dark Side of Day
Squire
posted 01-09-03 11:37 PM CT (US)     1 / 22       
I think they should include the missing features from AOM in the AOE III game .......and more!

This is IT, That is ALL!
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Ornlu
Recreational Procreator
posted 01-10-03 10:15 AM CT (US)     2 / 22       
It should be easy to learn, but contain lots of things that got missed in AoK. So both advanced users and designing rooks should be able to use it.

None of us are free, one of us is chained.
Luke Gevaerts
Squire
(id: Angel Luke)
posted 01-10-03 10:44 AM CT (US)     3 / 22       
From where I stood, methinks it's better to have a powerhouse than to have a UFD. After a while, you'll get the hang of the editor in any case, leaving the UFness useless.
The WarCraft III editor is a good example of a powerhouse editor with little to no documentation, a steep learning curve but virtually endless possibilities - including nigh boundryless modding (since WC3 uses the SC packing system, which has been cracked long ago).

My two cents.

Deathmatch
Squire
(id: Darkmaster)
posted 01-10-03 11:56 AM CT (US)     4 / 22       

Quote:

From where I stood, methinks it's better to have a powerhouse than to have a UFD. After a while, you'll get the hang of the editor in any case, leaving the UFness useless.
The WarCraft III editor is a good example of a powerhouse editor with little to no documentation, a steep learning curve but virtually endless possibilities - including nigh boundryless modding (since WC3 uses the SC packing system, which has been cracked long ago).

But, even with the ample user-friendliness of the AoK/TC editor, there are many people asking questions along the lines of "I can't find gold! How do you place gold in the map?!1111" and "How do you get an image to show up at the scenario instruction screen?!!!11111".


-1
Luke Gevaerts
Squire
(id: Angel Luke)
posted 01-10-03 12:15 PM CT (US)     5 / 22       

Quote:

But, even with the ample user-friendliness of the AoK/TC editor, there are many people asking questions along the lines of "I can't find gold! How do you place gold in the map?!1111" and "How do you get an image to show up at the scenario instruction screen?!!!11111".

Answering those questions is what we're here for.

Deathmatch
Squire
(id: Darkmaster)
posted 01-10-03 12:32 PM CT (US)     6 / 22       
There was this forumer, Stan the Conquistador...he left HG just because of that. There was a whole letter that he had written (it was at KoRT a while back), about how he hated many new AoKH forumers because they'd ask the same question over and over and over again, without bothering to look for the answer themselves.

-1
Luke Gevaerts
Squire
(id: Angel Luke)
posted 01-10-03 12:58 PM CT (US)     7 / 22       
... So?
Deathmatch
Squire
(id: Darkmaster)
posted 01-10-03 03:29 PM CT (US)     8 / 22       
It's just that many forumers get annoyed by this and flame wars start.

-1
Luke Gevaerts
Squire
(id: Angel Luke)
posted 01-10-03 05:05 PM CT (US)     9 / 22       

Quote:

It's just that many forumers get annoyed by this

That's what seperates the good from the great. The good get annoyed, and start flame wars; the great remember that they once didn't know the answers to those questions, and continue to politely share their minds.

Quote:

and flame wars start.

That's why moderators exist.

Deathmatch
Squire
(id: Darkmaster)
posted 01-10-03 05:07 PM CT (US)     10 / 22       
Isn't it always better to quench the fire before it starts?

-1
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 01-10-03 05:14 PM CT (US)     11 / 22       

Quote:

But, even with the ample user-friendliness of the AoK/TC editor, there are many people asking questions along the lines of "I can't find gold! How do you place gold in the map?!1111" and "How do you get an image to show up at the scenario instruction screen?!!!11111".

i would rather have a few great scenarios because of the very strong editer than great scenarios AND tons of trashy ones

Deathmatch
Squire
(id: Darkmaster)
posted 01-10-03 06:14 PM CT (US)     12 / 22       

Quote:

i would rather have a few great scenarios because of the very strong editer than great scenarios AND tons of trashy ones

Most great scenarios don't even get submitted. The scenario editor should also be for people who have had no experience with scenario editors.


-1
Jaguar_Kid_77_
Squire
posted 01-10-03 11:47 PM CT (US)     13 / 22       
I think i would prefer a very-powerful-versatile-for-everything-editor rather than a easy-to-use-simple-and-basic one. When i began using the AOK editor, i didn't knew how to do ANYTHING (the only thing i knew was to put some terrain ). But, after making my first (crappy!!) scenario, and another one, and another one, and another one, i discovered by myself the wonders of gaia units, cliffs, and mainly, triggers.
People that doesn't know anything about the editor should always TRY, TRY, and TRY things (What is this button for? And this one?). Just press the buttons and see what happens.

That's the way i learn how to do things

LithiumXL
Squire
posted 01-11-03 09:27 AM CT (US)     14 / 22       
no more bloody crashes lol
List of my scenarios scrapped cos of crashes
Crime Fighters
Fort Mandarin
Badlands (might come back)
IVIAFIA
Legend of Yuma
Legend of Mir (spoof)
Legend of Soma (spoof)

Looking for
Mafia Style RPG(like GTA) (TC)
Map Tricks Scenario (TC)
New Objects Scenario (TC)
SchighSchagh
Squire
posted 01-11-03 10:55 AM CT (US)     15 / 22       
DEFINETELY go for powerhouse.

Quote:

I think i would prefer a very-powerful-versatile-for-everything-editor rather than a easy-to-use-simple-and-basic one. When i began using the AOK editor, i didn't knew how to do ANYTHING (the only thing i knew was to put some terrain ). But, after making my first (crappy!!) scenario, and another one, and another one, and another one, i discovered by myself the wonders of gaia units, cliffs, and mainly, triggers.
People that doesn't know anything about the editor should always TRY, TRY, and TRY things (What is this button for? And this one?). Just press the buttons and see what happens.
That's the way i learn how to do things


i couldn't have said it better myself

thats how i leared to use a computer no1 taught me how to double click on a desktop item; no1 taught me how to click a link in IE.

all there is to learning how to use new software is to try it out
if u mess up, use the Undo button
if there isn't one, the undo the messup manually.
its all the same to me

so DEFINETELY go for powerhouse


- SchighSchagh
Nabrimn
Squire
posted 01-13-03 12:56 PM CT (US)     16 / 22       
One thing that would be nice would be the ability to use numbers instead of names. This would allow beta units to be created by triggers.

It would be better to have a transparent file format and a hex editor. You should be able to do anything you can do with the editor with triggers, even map copy if possible.

[rant]All cheat and beta units should be available in the heros list. Imagine the cool effects that could have been done with some of the AoE cheat units in the AoK heros list, or should be acessable by number in triggers. Creating and destroying cheat units, which often have nifty explosions, could supplement creating and destroying petards and birds. (why do the AoK cheat units look pathetic and die in pathetic ways compared to the AoE/RoR cheat units) The ability to edit everything with triggers is important. It should be possible to wipe the map and replace it with another in the middle of a scenario, complete with changed names and stats for units and changed AIs for the comp. (I don't know why one would want to do this rather than make another scenario, but it's a good measuring stick for a powerful trigger system) Branched campaigns are also a desirable feature.
[/rant]


As a public service I present Doug Thompson's civ thread collections:
Saracen/Turk Mongols Japanese Persians
magna gb
Squire
posted 01-15-03 05:56 PM CT (US)     17 / 22       
Larger map = more fun to play = more lag to play, that seems to be what map making tells us right now.

What if, instead of using one huge map, we put in several continuous maps? Here's what I propose:

Inside the Scenario Editor (where lag doesn't seem to be all that bad), we should be able to start a colossus gigantic huge map, say at most 36 times as large as the "gigantic" sized map we have right now. This map would almost be impossible to play, so here are my solution:

We could divide up the maps into "sections" So that only 1 section of the map loads at the same time.

-------
|A|B|C|
-------
|D|E|F|
-------
|G|H|I|
-------

Just imagine that above, square ACGI is the entire map we design in the editor. But we divide the square ACGI into 9 sections, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I

say I start the game on square H, the only part of the map that loads is square H, if I reach the northernmost point, the square E loads, and when I step over onto square E, square H saves all information and fades. This would apply to all units, so if you have an unit on square H, F, and C, and your main base is on square I, then you would only load those squares. Therefore to keep the lagness small, you just simply get your units off a few squares.

This can be used greatly in fixed force and RPG scenarios, but when it comes to build and destroy it becomes bad, so for build and destroy just simply use 1 small map.

You asked me "What do you think should be included in the scenario editor", well that above, is my answer. We should be able to make colossus-gigantic-huge maps.

Also, one more question: Why must we choose between user-friendliness and powerful? Why can't they both be good at the same time?


hello all
AIM_54a
Squire
posted 01-18-03 05:09 AM CT (US)     18 / 22       
That is a cool idea....I like it. A map with sections would be great for scenarios more or less capmaigns. You would be able to make a campaign in one scenario. Very cool idea. I wish I had written it down when I thought of it....Just Kidding!

GSC-4E
Co-Founder
Shade Studios
Silver Wonder
Squire
posted 01-24-03 03:19 PM CT (US)     19 / 22       
I find it really annoying that the heroe has to start in the editor for the 'Change Object Name' effect. They should have a set area option.
Silver Wonder
Squire
posted 01-26-03 10:07 AM CT (US)     20 / 22       
And I think it should be a powerhouse, not a user freindly tool as you can use it as a user friendly tool whenever you want.

But what should be included is a long tutorial telling the basics of triggers and map copy for newbies. This would be good because it says nothing about the editor in the manual.

So basicly, I personally would like to see more conditions, features, effects and options for the editor, so that you can do virtually anything you might want to put into a scenario, although you basicly can anyway.

Tom Edwards
Squire
posted 01-26-03 12:26 PM CT (US)     21 / 22       
The best possible thing that could happen to the editor, yea the game, is for it to adopt a semi-shooter style. This would allow for caves, arches and tunnels that were previously not possible and more importantly for players to create, animate, texture and import their own units, buildings, terrains, rooms and anything else they might want. Think of Worldcraft/Hammer Editor for an RTS: completely revolutionary and incredibly versatile. Nigh on impossible too, but I'll brush over that for now.

"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense."
- Tom Clancy
Staff Member, Dragon Gaming Design Network
Tom Edwards
Squire
posted 01-26-03 12:29 PM CT (US)     22 / 22       
Double Post.

"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense."
- Tom Clancy
Staff Member, Dragon Gaming Design Network

[This message has been edited by Tom Edwards (edited 01-26-2003 @ 12:30 PM).]

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