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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Town's Crier » Dreams & Tears
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Topic Subject:Dreams & Tears
sly_guy
Squire
posted 11-20-08 02:29 AM CT (US)         
I've been spending some time thinking about stuff, and lately it's been more of a philosophical nature than anything else. (NOTE: Philosophy has never been, and likely never will be my strong suit. This is just something that's kind of been bugging me for a while now.) So here goes:

Dreams and tears are involved in an cause-and-effect relationship. The thing is, I'm convinced that it goes both ways.

Definitions: (because you need to know what I mean when I say dreams or Tears!)

Tears: any form of unhappiness or sadness, really.
Dreams: one's goals in life, or even just some things that one really wants to happen.

Dreams as a result of tears:

Immediately, two scenarios pop into my mind:
  • Let's say something bad happens. Something that you'd rather not go through again. So what do you do? You resolve to do whatever you can to avoid going through that experience. Thus, doing whatever you can to avoid the experience becomes a dream, of sorts.
  • Someone sees something really tragic, and is touched by it (famine, epidemic, whatever it may be). They then do everything they can to eliminate the cause of that event, usually getting so wrapped up in it that they don't realize that it's become one of their life goals.

    Tears as a result of dreams:

    Again, two scenarios appear evident to me.
  • You've got these high expectations/goals in life, right? Say something happens to make you realize that you'll never be able to make those expectations happen. Ergo, it's something that makes you unhappy; a tear.
  • You find out that something you've always wanted to happen never will. Your reaction? If you're normal, wouldn't you feel at least a twinge of sadness?

    Note: If you wanted to take the "easier" way out, you could say that tears are tears (or something bad that happened), and that the dreams are nightmares. Nightmares can make you cry (who didn't go running to their parents when they were little as a result of a bad nightmare?), and bad things that happen during the day are sometimes incorporated into a nightmare, and may even cause it.

    Here's my question to you guys (two, actually):
    1. Am I grasping at straws here, or is there actually something to this? Please show me your reasons behind your response, in either case.

    2. If you think there's something in this mess, do you agree/disagree? Again, please state why in either case.

    Finally, you may also use this thread to discuss anything related to philosophy, or post some of your philosophical thoughts. Just stay on topic, please.

    DISCLAIMER: The above post was written while I was in a very tired state, so if anything doesn't make sense, ask, and I'll do my best to explain it clearly... after I get some sleep. *yawns*

    - ک

    Ladies and Gentlemen, wear sunscreen. If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be IT. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.

    This message has been brought to you by procrastination and the letters K and V.
  • AuthorReplies:
    four hundred babies
    Squire
    (id: Lord_Fadawah)
    posted 11-20-08 04:36 AM CT (US)     1 / 28       
    When I saw this thread's title I thought it was about some crappy RPG.
    Am I grasping at straws here, or is there actually something to this? Please show me your reasons behind your response, in either case.
    I very much agree, and there are lots of implications to what you're saying.

    It's a known fact that great things are seldom done by comfortable, well-adjusted people. Many of the world's geniuses were depressed, antisocial, or obsessive. Greatness comes from demons, you see.
    DISCLAIMER: The above post was written while I was in a very tired state, so if anything doesn't make sense, ask, and I'll do my best to explain it clearly... after I get some sleep. *yawns*
    Trust me, when you wake up you'll be thinking "why the hell did I post this?!"
    Powery
    Squire
    posted 11-20-08 08:26 AM CT (US)     2 / 28       
    Other things than dreams can make you sad or to shed tears. You get hurt, for instance. Or someone says something mean to you.
    Enraged Orange
    Squire
    (id: RoboPaul88)
    posted 11-21-08 05:54 PM CT (US)     3 / 28       
    Well sure, sadness can lead to goals and goals (and the failure to reach them) to sadness.

    But why always "Dreams & Tears" and never "Dreams & Smiles?" Why don't you think happiness can play the same role of sadness? Achieving your "dreams" leads to "smiles," not "tears." If something awesome happens, your goal might become to have it happen again - "smiles" leading to "dreams."

    I guess I just don't see the reason for your focus on the negative rather than the positive as more "fundamental."
    sly_guy
    Squire
    posted 11-21-08 07:44 PM CT (US)     4 / 28       
    To be honest, the whole thing came about as a result of listening to a song. The lyrics that inspired this:
    So baby dry your eyes
    Save all the tears you've cried
    Oh, that's what dreams are made of

    And yeah, I just realised that the lyrics can still work against me, since the tears have been dried up and dreams occur as a result.
    But why always "Dreams & Tears" and never "Dreams & Smiles?" Why don't you think happiness can play the same role of sadness? Achieving your "dreams" leads to "smiles," not "tears." If something awesome happens, your goal might become to have it happen again - "smiles" leading to "dreams."
    I didn't mean to imply that "dreams" are only caused by "tears" - apologies if it came across that way. It's just the way that the lyrics went, and I really didn't put much thought into smiles.
    Trust me, when you wake up you'll be thinking "why the hell did I post this?!"
    Right now what's going through my mind is "Why the hell didn't I put more thought into it?"

    - ک

    Ladies and Gentlemen, wear sunscreen. If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be IT. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.

    This message has been brought to you by procrastination and the letters K and V.
    Cobra the Mediocre
    Squire
    (id: The_Cobra_81)
    posted 11-21-08 08:10 PM CT (US)     5 / 28       
    I think one Siddhārtha Gautama beat you to this by centuries.

    1. There is suffering (tears).
    2. Suffering comes from craving (dreams).


    He's figured out a little more, though:

    3. Cessation of craving will lead to cessation of suffering.
    4. You can get rid of suffering in just eight noble steps.

    ...I had to resist writing "..." and "Profit!" as the last two steps. Forgive me, Enlightened One.

    Cobra the Mediocre
    SteadilY working up to Average
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    (Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 11-21-08 08:18 PM CT (US)     6 / 28       
    Most people have quite consistent, stable and predictable lives with the occasional happiness and enjoyment. This leaves them satisfied with whatever is offered to them.

    Others who are exposed to the absolutely worst often find motivation to reach the top. Coupled with talent and intelligence within the boundaries of opportunity, this leaves no limits to fulfilling ones dreams.

    EDIT - Yes, this is a typical "coming home after the club" kind of thread.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.

    [This message has been edited by Ornlu (edited 11-21-2008 @ 08:19 PM).]

    Cyrus_
    Banned
    posted 11-22-08 00:21 AM CT (US)     7 / 28       
    I think one Siddhārtha Gautama beat you to this by centuries.
    buddha was very wise in this instance I think. I don't agree with his eight steps because they're not too viable in the age of technology, but definitely a reduction of how much you depend on those dreams will cause less tears. Dreams can cause tears, but I don't think a depedence on those dreams is normal for most.
    Most people have quite consistent, stable and predictable lives with the occasional happiness and enjoyment.
    i bet you that that's nobody that frequents on internet forums from my experience, frequenting the internet is a form of escapism
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 02:30 PM CT (US)     8 / 28       
    i bet you that that's nobody that frequents on internet forums from my experience, frequenting the internet is a form of escapism
    Perhaps for some, but I do not consider boredom or loneliness exposure to the absolutely worst life has to offer.

    Also, you have to direct your experiences and energy in the right direction. Wasting it on an internet forum brings you nowhere.

    Compliments for making a good thread, sly.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    Kor
    Busschof Happertesch
    (id: Derfel Cadarn)
    posted 12-01-08 02:39 PM CT (US)     9 / 28       
    Most people have quite consistent, stable and predictable lives with the occasional happiness and enjoyment.
    i bet you that that's nobody that frequents on internet forums from my experience, frequenting the internet is a form of escapism
    Plus, the internet is far from stable, consistent, or predictable! It is a fun-packed thrill-ride the world over, effortlessly taking the traveller through time and space like a TARDIS on steroids! No day is the same in the wonderful world of the internet, with fad threads, trolls and forum drama! We, gentlemen, are heroic adventurers and, dare I say it, pioneers venturing forth into the unknown! We know no dull moment, will flinch for no monsters, have no time to dream (or sleep, as we will be undoubtedly murdered and eaten if we close our eyes) and if we shed tears, it is only because our water bottles have run dry and we need something to drink!

    Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
    Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
    Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
    Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
    Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
    Offt hin hinder.
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 02:42 PM CT (US)     10 / 28       
    Scrap what I said and close this thread. Kor has said all that needs to be said.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    Gwame
    Squire
    posted 12-01-08 02:52 PM CT (US)     11 / 28       
    Nice rhymes, Ornlu.

    MY NAME IS GWAME I AM AOKH MEMBER SINCE 2004 AND I HAVE MANY POSTS
    BEST SIG OF 2008 AND 2ND BEST SIG OF 2009 (SAME SIG LOLOL)
    BEST SIG OF 2008
    92% of teenagers have moved on to rap music. If you're on of the 8% that still listens to real music, copy this into your signature.
    "^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^" "Gwame your sig ain't funny nomore." - morgoth bauglir"^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^"
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 03:24 PM CT (US)     12 / 28       
    That was never my intent. Happened by accident.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    morgoth bauglir
    Squire
    posted 12-01-08 03:29 PM CT (US)     13 / 28       
    Ornlu lies. And, uh, eats pies.

    Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
    Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
    Signature currently under construction. If you want to help out and provide me with the resources needed, download from the above links.
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 03:34 PM CT (US)     14 / 28       
    What morgoth said is not true. I hope he catches bird flu.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    Kor
    Busschof Happertesch
    (id: Derfel Cadarn)
    posted 12-01-08 03:41 PM CT (US)     15 / 28       
    Tears will come of fowl diseases; you should protect him when the chicken sneezes.

    Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
    Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
    Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
    Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
    Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
    Offt hin hinder.
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 03:50 PM CT (US)     16 / 28       
    Lay no blame on the little hen. She's protecting her chickens from naughty men.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    morgoth bauglir
    Squire
    posted 12-01-08 03:53 PM CT (US)     17 / 28       
    Drop these issues, or you will experience seizures.

    Seriously, I suck at this.

    Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
    Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
    Signature currently under construction. If you want to help out and provide me with the resources needed, download from the above links.
    Kor
    Busschof Happertesch
    (id: Derfel Cadarn)
    posted 12-01-08 03:58 PM CT (US)     18 / 28       
    Her intentions are good and pure, no doubt - but chicken sneeze can slay even the proud.
    Perhaps for all mankind it's best to put all chickens to eternal rest.
    For if we let them wander 'round, we can never again sleep safe and sound.

    Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
    Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
    Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
    Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
    Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
    Offt hin hinder.
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 04:03 PM CT (US)     19 / 28       
    I see that you're taking this a step further; telling us that mankind should never die.
    All this talk about murder; for what? All creatures will one day in the ground lie.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    Gwame
    Squire
    posted 12-01-08 04:20 PM CT (US)     20 / 28       
    Judging by the amount of sense you're all making, you might as well be speaking a different language,
    But everyone please, I must deny the disease, as I'm eating a chicken sandwich.

    MY NAME IS GWAME I AM AOKH MEMBER SINCE 2004 AND I HAVE MANY POSTS
    BEST SIG OF 2008 AND 2ND BEST SIG OF 2009 (SAME SIG LOLOL)
    BEST SIG OF 2008
    92% of teenagers have moved on to rap music. If you're on of the 8% that still listens to real music, copy this into your signature.
    "^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^" "Gwame your sig ain't funny nomore." - morgoth bauglir"^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^"
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 04:33 PM CT (US)     21 / 28       
    In the corner Gwame and morgoth shall stand; or I'll get you both banned. Your attempts at rhyming are petty; but Kor's poetry is pretty.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    Gwame
    Squire
    posted 12-01-08 04:38 PM CT (US)     22 / 28       
    Quiet. You need a diet. Just try it...

    MY NAME IS GWAME I AM AOKH MEMBER SINCE 2004 AND I HAVE MANY POSTS
    BEST SIG OF 2008 AND 2ND BEST SIG OF 2009 (SAME SIG LOLOL)
    BEST SIG OF 2008
    92% of teenagers have moved on to rap music. If you're on of the 8% that still listens to real music, copy this into your signature.
    "^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^" "Gwame your sig ain't funny nomore." - morgoth bauglir"^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^"
    Ornlu
    Recreational Procreator
    posted 12-01-08 04:40 PM CT (US)     23 / 28       
    You googled that, I bet. Or stole a line from Hamlet.

    None of us are free, one of us is chained.
    Gwame
    Squire
    posted 12-01-08 04:47 PM CT (US)     24 / 28       
    I say this not woefully, but you know it's me, who turned the Town's Crier into a shire for rap/poetry

    MY NAME IS GWAME I AM AOKH MEMBER SINCE 2004 AND I HAVE MANY POSTS
    BEST SIG OF 2008 AND 2ND BEST SIG OF 2009 (SAME SIG LOLOL)
    BEST SIG OF 2008
    92% of teenagers have moved on to rap music. If you're on of the 8% that still listens to real music, copy this into your signature.
    "^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^" "Gwame your sig ain't funny nomore." - morgoth bauglir"^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^"

    [This message has been edited by Gwame (edited 12-01-2008 @ 04:47 PM).]

    Surge
    Squire
    (id: Lt_Surge99)
    posted 12-01-08 06:52 PM CT (US)     25 / 28       
    This topic has steered from its course. Toward sly_guy feel you no remorse? Any synonym search engine can make your words rhyme, but between babbling and telling something lies a fine thin line. =/

    "Especially awe-inspiring is the fact that any single brain is made up of atoms that were forged in the hearts of countless stars billions of years ago... These atoms now form a conglomerate – your brain – that can not only ponder the very stars that gave it birth but can also think about its own ability to think and wonder about its own ability to wonder. With the arrival of humans…the universe has suddenly become conscious of itself. This, truly, is the greatest mystery of all." - Rama

    [This message has been edited by Surge (edited 12-01-2008 @ 06:53 PM).]

    sly_guy
    Squire
    posted 12-01-08 07:14 PM CT (US)     26 / 28       
    Please steer back on topic, my friends,
    Or it meets an untimely end.

    Feel free to let the rhymes flow,
    But please, let the nonsense go.
    I fear I don't make myself clear:
    Let's have no silly rhyming here.
    The serious ones are quite fine;
    Stop the spam, or I'll lose my mind.



    - ک

    Ladies and Gentlemen, wear sunscreen. If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be IT. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.

    This message has been brought to you by procrastination and the letters K and V.
    Gwame
    Squire
    posted 12-02-08 02:56 PM CT (US)     27 / 28       
    He's right guys, and to top it all off, he's life-sized.

    MY NAME IS GWAME I AM AOKH MEMBER SINCE 2004 AND I HAVE MANY POSTS
    BEST SIG OF 2008 AND 2ND BEST SIG OF 2009 (SAME SIG LOLOL)
    BEST SIG OF 2008
    92% of teenagers have moved on to rap music. If you're on of the 8% that still listens to real music, copy this into your signature.
    "^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^" "Gwame your sig ain't funny nomore." - morgoth bauglir"^`'*-=~+,._.,+~=-*'`^"
    Ilmarinen
    Squire
    (id: Cilibinarii)
    posted 12-07-08 08:22 AM CT (US)     28 / 28       
    (first post)
    Trust me, when you wake up you'll be thinking "why the hell did I post this?!"
    I usually think that as soon as I have posted a topic

    Cilibinarii
    My AOK Maps
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