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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Town's Crier » Age of Empires IV and Age of Empires 2: Definitive Edition
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Topic Subject:Age of Empires IV and Age of Empires 2: Definitive Edition
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Lord Basse
MI6 Scenario-Making Machine
posted 08-21-17 04:49 PM CT (US)         
In case you didn't follow the Gamescom 2017 livestream, yes, both AoE4 and a definitive edition (remake?) of AoE2 are in the works.

Personally, as with any news surrounding AoE (AoE Online and Castle Siege come to mind), I'm very torn. On the one hand, any news of a new Age game is incredibly exciting. If all goes well, AoE4 could revive the series and become the successor that AoE3 never quite was. Or it could be an awful cash grab not worthy of the AoE title.

The AoE2 definitive edition on the other hand could very well splinter the community even further: once it's out there will be HD on Steam, DE for Windows Store, and some of us will still prefer the UserPatch version. Getting any kind of compatibility between the game versions could be a nightmare. Are any scenarios from the original game going to be playable in the Definitive Edition, for example, if the game is remade from the ground up?

Thoughts?

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The Relics of Athalën (5.0) | AoK Opus - 95,000+ downloads | StormWind Studios | "I consider the conversion of Basse to be one of the great triumphs of my modding crusade" - Matt LiVecchi
AuthorReplies:
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 08-21-17 05:01 PM CT (US)     1 / 38       
I kinda liked AoE3.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
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Dead_End
Cavalier
posted 08-21-17 05:02 PM CT (US)     2 / 38       
Or it could be an awful cash grab not worthy of the AoE title.
I remember how thrilled we were when the HD edition was about to be released. Fastforward a few years and it's still plagued by bugs and feels far from 'finished'. Microsoft hasn't released a single good game in the last couple of years. This is going to be utterly disappointing.
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 08-21-17 05:10 PM CT (US)     3 / 38       
I have zero expectations and therefore cannot be disappointed

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Lord Basse
MI6 Scenario-Making Machine
posted 08-21-17 05:11 PM CT (US)     4 / 38       
I kinda liked AoE3.
I actually liked it as well, but it always felt like it was closer to AoM than it was AoE. I could never get used to the editor, though, which is probably the main reason I still play AoE2 and haven't touch AoE3 since maybe 2009.
I remember how thrilled we were when the HD edition was about to be released. Fastforward a few years and it's still plagued by bugs and feels far from 'finished'. Microsoft hasn't released a single good game in the last couple of years. This is going to be utterly disappointing.
Yeah I'm afraid it's going to be just a repeat of AoEHD. But I would gladly be proven wrong.

I've also never played ony of Relic's other games, so I'm not sure what to expect from their take on the Age franchise.

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The ||||||||||||||||| Hus
OF | [/ \] |¯| [/ \] | ME
______________________________________________________________________________ |__ _ |¯|____|_______________________________________________________________________________
The Relics of Athalën (5.0) | AoK Opus - 95,000+ downloads | StormWind Studios | "I consider the conversion of Basse to be one of the great triumphs of my modding crusade" - Matt LiVecchi
Lurkur
Squire
(id: OtmShankIiI)
posted 08-21-17 06:25 PM CT (US)     5 / 38       
I recommend Company of Heroes and the first Dawn of War, to get an idea of their work. Both are excellent games, if a bit niche gameplay-wise. CoH2 and DoW2, well, they don't quite hold up (the former is far too reliant on microtransactions and its playerbase is honestly quite cancerous. The latter is some weird RPG-like thing with no base building, didn't play it much).

Like Sipia said in SS, I'll wait until the reviews start coming. Hopefully the game will remain true to the franchise's uh, spirit? I mean, no awful features like microtransactions or unwanted gimmicks slapped in (why did you make dow3 into a glorified moba lelic just WHY)

"Seriously, if human stupidity could be used as a source of power wed already be a class-III civilization and our rockets wouldve reached Andromeda by now."
« Cliffs! (4.5) »

["I am the True God, Lua-kuh. Hhsssss. Start the Church of the Talking Lizard. Hssssssss. Build the Neo Temple. Spread the Word. Hssssssssssss. Follow meeeeeeeee... to... the otha... siiiiiiiide..."

And then he started belting out vague poetry about wanting to have sex with his mom." -From the great old Aro, about a dream I had.]
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 08-21-17 06:28 PM CT (US)     6 / 38       
I heard studio Relic has been called in for this project? Their latest project was something of a bomb but they have done decent work in the past. Could go either way.

Ah, more butchering of my childhood memories by greedy corporations...microsoft is probably most interested in the Esports nature of this title as a possible competitor to the starcraft, dota and lol franchises so i am worried they will take this in an ugly direction. Yeah i know its cynical and pessimistic lol but we see this a lot in the gaming industry lately.

So the video depicted a compilation of AoE, AoK and AoE3 era content...roughly 1000 BC to 1700 AD era being covered. How this content will be formatted into ages will be interesting...four ages again, or are we going Rise of Nations esque?
DE for Windows Store
DE is an AOE1 touchup by forgotten empires team. Your post makes it sound like DE is related to AoE2, not sure if you intended that.

And yes, any game on the windows store is dead in my eyes. Until a "Nautical Strategy" edition is available for window7, if thats even possible, i wont ever touch it.

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel

[This message has been edited by Cataphract887 (edited 08-21-2017 @ 06:30 PM).]

MawBTS
I ONCE PUT AN ENTIRE ORANGE INTO MY MOUTH
(id: Bart Pimpson)
posted 08-21-17 07:37 PM CT (US)     7 / 38       
I remember how thrilled we were when the HD edition was about to be released. Fastforward a few years and it's still plagued by bugs and feels far from 'finished'.
I played it for a few days. The water looked great. The fire looked like it was from Diablo. All the hotkeys were different. None of my old files were compatible. No LAN play. I couldn't figure out what the point was, or why it needed to exist.

I haven't played the expansions, and don't feel enthusiastic about starting. AoK:TC already had too many civilizations, and I'm not sure it needs sixty additional ones. Especially since most of those civs were purposefully excluded from original game for good and compelling reasons (read the old ES_Sandyman threads and you'll see his arguments). Either they make no sense in the context of AoK, or they're too close to civs that already exist, or they're just stupid.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe millions of people were just clamouring to play as the Ethiopians, and the Magyars. Buy Rise of the Rajas and you can finally command the mighty Vietnamese war machine, like you've always dreamed.
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 08-21-17 08:02 PM CT (US)     8 / 38       
I couldn't figure out what the point was, or why it needed to exist.
Yeah, i mostly agree. Its horribly disappointing. That said there are a few positive points for HD. The three main selling points of HD as of today are 1. Steam workshop integration makes installing mods a one click process 2. The new content comes with a large multiplayer base whereas all mods for normal AoC fail to gain any traction on voobly so you can actually play multiplayer with new content 3. New artwork in the form of architectures, and especially terrains, and new editor objects to play with, and editor features like off grid placement.

For now ive abandoned the competitive side of AoC and am a scenario editor guy, so point number three makes HD very compelling. If not for the existence of the Userpatch, which adds almost every technical feature of HD(and many more HD lacks) minus the graphics but with far superior pathfinding and better ingame performance with larger armies...

If you dont want to play Ethiopians in multiplayer, and you dont care about the new graphics for the scenario editor, there basically is no reason to start playing HD. There are campaigns\scenarios worth playing on an individual level, but at that point its more like you firing up a modded AoC once in awhile to play them

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Lord Basse
MI6 Scenario-Making Machine
posted 08-21-17 08:11 PM CT (US)     9 / 38       
DE is an AOE1 touchup by forgotten empires team. Your post makes it sound like DE is related to AoE2, not sure if you intended that.
I meant the definitive edition they announced for AoE2, not the one for AoE1 that's coming out soon.
Ah, more butchering of my childhood memories by greedy corporations...microsoft is probably most interested in the Esports nature of this title as a possible competitor to the starcraft, dota and lol franchises so i am worried they will take this in an ugly direction. Yeah i know its cynical and pessimistic lol but we see this a lot in the gaming industry lately.
I don't think you're wrong. But I hope that there at least are enough passionate people involved to make something good out of it.
I played it for a few days. The water looked great. The fire looked like it was from Diablo. All the hotkeys were different. None of my old files were compatible. No LAN play. I couldn't figure out what the point was, or why it needed to exist.
It did have some upsides. It brought in a lot of new people who otherwise wouldn't have played the game, growing the game's audience. But the original game plus UserPatch 1.5 is vastly superior to anything HD can offer. The expansions would be pretty fantastic as mod packs, but as official expansions they do stretch the game beyond what it was ever meant to do; the example you mention of civs becoming too similar has definitely become the case.

It's been four years since AoEHD came out and it's still a mess. The last three games I played either froze or crashed, and one in three games I've ever played has ended with an "Out of sync" message. I made a scenario in the HD editor a few years ago which is now unplayable due to an update that somehow broke the backwards compatibility. It's ridiculous.

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The ||||||||||||||||| Hus
OF | [/ \] |¯| [/ \] | ME
______________________________________________________________________________ |__ _ |¯|____|_______________________________________________________________________________
The Relics of Athalën (5.0) | AoK Opus - 95,000+ downloads | StormWind Studios | "I consider the conversion of Basse to be one of the great triumphs of my modding crusade" - Matt LiVecchi

[This message has been edited by Lord Basse (edited 08-21-2017 @ 08:14 PM).]

The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 08-22-17 02:23 AM CT (US)     10 / 38       
One thing that makes HD very helpful when designing in teams is Steam library sharing. Only one of 220108 needs to own the game and can legally share it to others (if I understand the feature correctly).

About AoE3 I like campaigns. I like family Black. I like multiplayer. I hate editor.

AoE4: I'm happy if it brings the time era it originaly was planned for. If it doesn't it's balls.

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa
Dead_End
Cavalier
posted 08-22-17 03:55 AM CT (US)     11 / 38       
I haven't played the expansions, and don't feel enthusiastic about starting. AoK:TC already had too many civilizations, and I'm not sure it needs sixty additional ones. Especially since most of those civs were purposefully excluded from original game for good and compelling reasons (read the old ES_Sandyman threads and you'll see his arguments). Either they make no sense in the context of AoK, or they're too close to civs that already exist, or they're just stupid.
My man.
MawBTS
I ONCE PUT AN ENTIRE ORANGE INTO MY MOUTH
(id: Bart Pimpson)
posted 08-22-17 04:13 AM CT (US)     12 / 38       
I made a scenario in the HD editor a few years ago which is now unplayable due to an update that somehow broke the backwards compatibility. It's ridiculous.
Yikes. Me no likey.

So where are we at with scenario designing? What's compatible/incompatible with what, exactly? I know 1.0(c/d/e) files don't work with Userpatch, unless I've done something wrong. And apparently HD isn't even compatible with itself.

I recently had an idea that's too funny not to make (you have no army, and you have to manipulate a mass of AI controlled monks against the enemy via taunts), and I'm wondering what version of the game to design it on. What will give me the maximum reach across audiences?

[This message has been edited by MawBTS (edited 08-22-2017 @ 04:22 AM).]

Lord Basse
MI6 Scenario-Making Machine
posted 08-22-17 06:48 AM CT (US)     13 / 38       
The short answer: design in HD and you reach a wider audience (Steam Workshop), design with the UserPatch and you get the greatest amount of creative freedom (new effects and conditions, weather and light effects etc.)

Cross-compatibility between the game versions is a bit of a mess. Anything made in 1.0c (including modded dat-files and all) works with the UserPatch, but a scenario made with UP might not work in 1.0c, either because it uses effects that are UP-specific, or because UP fixes things that would have crashed the game in 1.0c, like using the change ownership effect on 200 units.

Scenarios made with the HD editor have entirely different file extensions, meaning they don't work with the CD version of the game at all. If you make sure not to use any of the features HD adds, though, you can convert them into regular .scx files that (at least most of the time) work in 1.0c/UP.

While the HD version adds some of the same effects and conditions that UP adds, they are sometimes placed differently in the system, meaning that an "change speed" effect in UP might end up as a "change range" effect when you open the scenario in the HD editor - if you can open it at all.

__[]_________
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The ||||||||||||||||| Hus
OF | [/ \] |¯| [/ \] | ME
______________________________________________________________________________ |__ _ |¯|____|_______________________________________________________________________________
The Relics of Athalën (5.0) | AoK Opus - 95,000+ downloads | StormWind Studios | "I consider the conversion of Basse to be one of the great triumphs of my modding crusade" - Matt LiVecchi

[This message has been edited by Lord Basse (edited 08-22-2017 @ 06:51 AM).]

MawBTS
I ONCE PUT AN ENTIRE ORANGE INTO MY MOUTH
(id: Bart Pimpson)
posted 08-22-17 04:00 PM CT (US)     14 / 38       
Thanks - that was helpful.

I've noticed that some people have uploaded old AoKH campaigns to the Steam Workshop (eg Ulio). So I guess it's somewhat possible to play a AoK:TC 1.0 campaign on AoE2:HD?
an "change speed" effect in UP might end up as a "change range" effect
Er...we can do that now? Serves me right for playing basically nothing made past 2005.

What are some good modern campaigns that are considered state of the art as far as trigger tricks etc go? I'm clearly very behind the times.
CarolKarine
Squire
posted 08-22-17 04:25 PM CT (US)     15 / 38       
I'm tenatively excited for the DE of AoK. I want to see a single version of the game, I'm tired of having a 1.0c, a UP 1.5, and HD, and a WK install. It's just excessive.

I know that the AoKDE will never be able to utilize the UP 1.5 scenarios, but if it's backwards compatible with 1.0c and HD scenarios I'll be happy.

I mostly just want all the content in one location with no reason to use another version.

Proud owner of Splash Splash XLIV: Leave it there for someone to find, Which is on record for being the fastest thread to reach 2500 posts - which was completed in 28 hours and 17 minutes, from start to finish!
Yeah, the republican party is pretty much one big schizophrenic ball of contradictions nowadays. - Ax_man1
double post for milestone, then relentlessly bash on the community for the hell of it... stay classy thymole. - Lurker
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 08-22-17 04:35 PM CT (US)     16 / 38       
What are some good modern campaigns that are considered state of the art as far as trigger tricks etc go? I'm clearly very behind the times.
Lord Basse's own Relics of Athalon is IMHO the most epic campaign since the good old days of Kings Best Men and Ulio, though it uses modding not just trigger tricks. Masheks "Blood of the Bear" is a must play as well.

You could poke your head in at the Playthrough thread over in S&D forum, we dont bite

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Lord Basse
MI6 Scenario-Making Machine
posted 08-22-17 06:48 PM CT (US)     17 / 38       
What are some good modern campaigns that are considered state of the art as far as trigger tricks etc go? I'm clearly very behind the times.
The last several PTC winners are probably the best showcases of trigger tricks, 2015's Smile No More in particular. Al_Kharn the Great has made a number of scenarios that use the HD editor to its full capacity, but I can't really think of a campaign that has fully utilized the UserPatch to date. So there is a lot of fertile ground there.

As for top notch stuff made for 1.0c, some relatively recent good examples are The Successor (part 2 in particular), Tsubasa's Tale, Defence at Lorgan's Watch, Storm on the Steppe and Outlawed - Remake.

__[]_________
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The ||||||||||||||||| Hus
OF | [/ \] |¯| [/ \] | ME
______________________________________________________________________________ |__ _ |¯|____|_______________________________________________________________________________
The Relics of Athalën (5.0) | AoK Opus - 95,000+ downloads | StormWind Studios | "I consider the conversion of Basse to be one of the great triumphs of my modding crusade" - Matt LiVecchi
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-23-17 00:15 AM CT (US)     18 / 38       
Julius999's work often doesn't get enough attention. In addition to his highly-touted PTC entries, A Call to Arms is one of the better and more innovative FF scenarios out there, while The Princes' Revolt is a great hybrid of B&D and risk-style gameplay.

Lord Basse's grand library of scenarios are must-plays, too.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
oliver
Squire
posted 08-23-17 00:19 AM CT (US)     19 / 38       
Looking at your sig, Basse, I felt the urge to calculate my AoKH flex-ability in terms of downloads. 51,000. Way behind you.

Rather unrelated: does userpatch have backwards compatibility with modified .dat files, if based on 1.0c? Forgive me if I ask more stupid questions, I basically stopped playing PC games for a decade to focus on other things.

EDIT: I guess this was what I was looking for:
Anything made in 1.0c (including modded dat-files and all) works with the UserPatch
I'm torn whether I should make an effort to design something small but new, or face the L&T behemoth again ... I managed to recover it, but ... I'm not sure it holds up to today's scene. Might run it this weekend, post some screenshots and then gauge whether it's worth it. Basically I have just half a day a week for my own things, but it could be nice to do some SD for the sake of relaxing, now that I'm an old geezer and don't have the same need to flaunt muh skillz.

[This message has been edited by oliver (edited 08-23-2017 @ 00:31 AM).]

Lord Basse
MI6 Scenario-Making Machine
posted 08-23-17 08:15 AM CT (US)     20 / 38       
Looking at your sig, Basse, I felt the urge to calculate my AoKH flex-ability in terms of downloads. 51,000. Way behind you.
That's what you get for not focusing on the important things in life, like making scenarios for a 20-year-old game.

As for L&T, I have no doubt that it will hold up. Many of the scenarios that are still considered the very best were made many, many years ago (Legends of Chila being one). And besides, L&T was always highly anticipated so it would be great just to see what became of it.

__[]_________
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The ||||||||||||||||| Hus
OF | [/ \] |¯| [/ \] | ME
______________________________________________________________________________ |__ _ |¯|____|_______________________________________________________________________________
The Relics of Athalën (5.0) | AoK Opus - 95,000+ downloads | StormWind Studios | "I consider the conversion of Basse to be one of the great triumphs of my modding crusade" - Matt LiVecchi
Jay10125
Squire
(id: thomasweed9)
posted 08-23-17 10:12 AM CT (US)     21 / 38       
I've got stupid question but is there any point for making mods for Age of Empire 2 since that it is going to get a definitive edition?
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 08-23-17 10:37 AM CT (US)     22 / 38       
I highly doubt many people will move to AoE2 DE. So if you enjoy making mods then either normal AoE2 or HD Edition are the places to be.

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 08-23-17 12:01 PM CT (US)     23 / 38       
As far as I can tell, the design community is mostly using Userpatch rather than HD.

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-23-17 01:03 PM CT (US)     24 / 38       
HD has the far larger playerbase, so in terms of sheer numbers it will clock in at a higher count across the board. But the vast majority of skilled designers and modders who have been around the game for longer than the past four years (read: the AoKH community) are on the CD + UserPatch. Many people who start on HD end up migrating to the CD + UserPatch, too, especially now that Wololo Kingdoms gives players the best of both worlds, allowing them to play the HD expansions on the latest UserPatch version, which in terms of performance and stability is superior to HD in every way.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Sebastien
Dark Samurai
posted 08-23-17 01:31 PM CT (US)     25 / 38       
I highly doubt many people will move to AoE2 DE.
I disagree. It's really up to the developers on whether they create a product worthy of migrating to.

This is their chance to really impress us and finally create a product which everybody from all communities (UP and HD) will want to play.

So, if they create a great game, which exceeds the fun or capabilities of UP + HD, then I'm sure most people will move to AOE2 DE.

Hopefully.

[This message has been edited by Sebastien (edited 08-23-2017 @ 01:31 PM).]

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