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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design and Discussion » The Double Negative Effect release
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Topic Subject:The Double Negative Effect release
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Nixck
Squire
posted 04-28-11 03:52 AM CT (US)         
Tutorial download link
The Hero's Inventory download

Finally after discovering this by accident, 5 years ago, I am releasing a tutorial on how to make units have negative IDs and the tricks that come along with this. I have used this trick in a couple of my maps, such as The Heatlh Potion Trick. But what is the double negative effect? It's when you give units/buildings negative unit IDs, whether by themselves or paired up with another unit to achieve new AoK tricks. I would not suggest new map makers try this because it is confusing, sometimes irritating, and you need to have a couple programs installed. First off you need to have Trigger Studio and GeniED installed on your computer. I suggest you also install Aokts with s_t_c's addon because it's really useful anyways. Now here are the steps to make negative ID unit pairs(with pictures too!)

Step 1: Run GeniED and unhide all units from editor.
example

Step 2: Go ingame and drop a projectile down. (i always use an arrow)
example

Step 3: Load up AoKTS and look at the arrow you placed.
example

Step 4: Change the arrow to an archer (any non projectile works)
example

Step 5: Drop 2+ more arrows ingame and return to AoKTS. You will now have a set of units with the same negative ID. Delete the remainder.
example


Now you are ready to start making some new tricks. Change the units around to however you see fit. Most of these tricks need to have a pair of units with the same negative ID except trick #3 in the tutorial. The easiest thing you can achieve is garrison both of these units into a normal unit and you can unload them indefinitely. As far as I understand, when two units have the same negative ID, they are basically the same unit now. However one of the units acts as a dominate unit and the other is recessive. Example, if you garrisoned both the negative ID units into a normal unit and try to ungarrison them, one will remain garrisoned in the unit and have its icon, and the other will be unloaded. So sometimes you may have to switch the units to get the icon or effect you want. Note that you can use buildings for icons but they get the icons of units sometimes for whatever reason. Read the scenario instructions in the map to achieve each specific trick. I have not done a lot of testing on this double negative effect in the editor, almost no testing in multiplayer, and zero testing with campaigns. This is where I need your help.

There are a lot of oddities that happen with negative ID units. The first is that you cannot select them, unless you own the object and then it is only selectable with the comma "," or period button "." Another is the stupid "unable to unload" error that happens for whatever reason. An example of this is at the end of the tutorial. Also when a trigger with a remove object effect goes off, it sometimes gives the same "unable to unload" message to things that would normally work. Play around with this system (negative ID unit pairs) and find out for yourself what happens and what is possible!

Credits to Scenario_t_c for helping me 5 years ago and Hawk_KK for this post because after I discovered the double negative effect years ago, I didn't know how to do it again (make units have negative ids) until i read this, hence why I didn't release this until now.

Good luck! Post any questions, new discoveries, tricks, bugs, and etc here or email me (check my profile)

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 05-13-2011 @ 06:28 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
aok_lover
Squire
posted 04-28-11 04:03 AM CT (US)     1 / 40       
Sounds cool, I might have a look if I have time... Good work with this

Check out my Single Player Campaign in Progress:
Age of Caesar | Thread.
Basse
Squire
posted 04-28-11 10:15 AM CT (US)     2 / 40       
I knew this was possible, but I didn't find a good use of it
Findig
Squire
posted 04-28-11 11:07 AM CT (US)     3 / 40       
I knew this was possible, but I didn't find a good use of it.
Well, this inexhaustible "pocket-inventory", Nixck demonstrated in his Health Potion Trick could be very useful - and player-controlled projectiles too.

[This message has been edited by Findig (edited 04-28-2011 @ 11:11 AM).]

Dtrungle
Squire
posted 04-28-11 05:58 PM CT (US)     4 / 40       
IIRC, the unlimited unload is limited to the unloaded unit not dying. So it would only be unlimited if it was unkillable such as projectiles.

With that in mind, there are probably more applications that would benefit with this but in general it will stick with the potion detection and projectile detection theme. Something like summoning would be hindered.

~
[My Dropped RPG Project | Keltos - RPG] [My Finished Games | MGC09 - Where Am I + MGC11 - All For The Horse + Puzzle Racing] [My Current Project | Defense of The Towers]
~~~
A RPG Scenario You Should Play | Tsubasa's Tale | Another RPG Scenario You Should Play | IceQuest
Nixck
Squire
posted 04-28-11 06:26 PM CT (US)     5 / 40       
Thanks for all the comments, and yes the inventory is the most useful part of this but I tried to think of as many uses as possible.

@basse
thank god I wasn't the only person that toyed with this before

@Dtrungle I'm pretty sure you could always use an invincible trick so the object doesn't die

EDIT: I was thinking of making a freeze tag type map where units have a spell in their inventory that changes ownership of enemies near them to gaia and gaia units that were allies back into allies. And throw in some hawk explosions for added effect. This would take a lot of triggers though, considering I'd have to make a new trigger for each 1x1 or 2x2 square on the map. If only I didn't have a horrible computer that overheats every 20 minutes...

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 04-28-2011 @ 06:43 PM).]

Dtrungle
Squire
posted 04-28-11 07:01 PM CT (US)     6 / 40       
If the unloaded unit is deleted or removed/killed with an effect, the unlimited becomes limited. =/ Following that, summons would be immortal? Which is a bit overpowered regarding with balance.

As for your idea, can you use Bring Object to Object condition on 2 projectiles? You could probably use OLD-EXPLORER as they are movable units that are unselectable and invisible.

And as for the difficult triggering, may I suggest Trigger Script Editor? It's quite simple to make duplicate triggers with varying value changes.

~
[My Dropped RPG Project | Keltos - RPG] [My Finished Games | MGC09 - Where Am I + MGC11 - All For The Horse + Puzzle Racing] [My Current Project | Defense of The Towers]
~~~
A RPG Scenario You Should Play | Tsubasa's Tale | Another RPG Scenario You Should Play | IceQuest
Nixck
Squire
posted 04-28-11 07:11 PM CT (US)     7 / 40       
It would be kind of useful for a pocket healer, can't die and will heal you all the time and you can summon it. Hero dies = hes dies. and yes if one of them dies or gets removed it doesn't work anymore.

Bring object to object doesn't work, SO ANNOYING!

And I want to use that program but it doesn't work on my windows 7 comp and my windows xp comp always overheats and is a pain in the back to use. No worry I'll do it one day. I seem to make cool concepts more then I actually make them into scenarios.

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 04-28-2011 @ 07:16 PM).]

Ryusaki
Squire
posted 04-28-11 11:14 PM CT (US)     8 / 40       
Omg I leave map designing for 6 month and now I have no idea what you guys are talking about 11.

No no, after 10 minuets I got it .

I'm looking for a good signature.
Basse
Squire
posted 04-29-11 02:31 PM CT (US)     9 / 40       
Hmm. I tried a different health potion trick that uses same concept, but different triggers. I have 2 of the same negative ID's (ID: -2), one of them being a Proj, H Canoneer and 1 being Emperor in a Barrel. Both of them are garrisoned inside a Hrolf the Ganger (ID: 148). In my case, I see both the unit icons when selecting the Hrolf. I can't unload either of them "not close enough to open land" or whatever pops up.

What am I doing wrong?

Edit: I tried having the Hrolf having a negative ID as well, but then he became unselectable.

[This message has been edited by Basse (edited 04-29-2011 @ 02:34 PM).]

Nixck
Squire
posted 04-29-11 03:05 PM CT (US)     10 / 40       
Keep him with a regular ID. To select negative ID units they need to be under your ownership and have a hotkey to select them (ex -> period button for villagers, comma for military, H for town center, etc). And that annoying message happens for whatever reason that is unknown to me. Sometimes it feels like happening and sometimes it doesnt. Try switching the units, emporer -> projectile and the projectile to emporer.

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 04-29-2011 @ 03:07 PM).]

Basse
Squire
posted 04-29-11 03:19 PM CT (US)     11 / 40       
Nope, that didn't work.

These new tricks have opened new doors when it comes to RPGs. I means, unloading objects to cast spells. You could even use it for equipping items.
Nixck
Squire
posted 04-29-11 03:43 PM CT (US)     12 / 40       
Yes I was thinking of making one myself but i'm terrible at making the terrain/ice candy for maps, i prefer the trigger work/tricks. The only thing that is lame is that you can only use units as icons and not buildings or technologies. If you try to use a building it uses a random unrelated unit for some reason.

Also I was bored and made this map for you Basse
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/28213061/test2.scx

The heal works fine in this map, i did however put the emporer in a barrel as gaia but that shouldn't matter, i did it because i used a hawk for an icon at first. I also used a different system for healing; when the projectile is detected it creates a monk for player 3 at the bottom of the map, tasks him to you, and is deleted 4 seconds later. Of course you have to tribute player 3 +1000 heal rate and heal range with scenario_t_c's aokts addon to do that. The advantage of this way to heal is the heal can either be instant or take a couple seconds as if like in diablo 2 where potions don't heal all at once; can heal to full health no matter what it is (other method you need to know their max hp), and doesn't deselect your unit (unlike the healing method i used in my health potion trick scenario).

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 04-29-2011 @ 04:00 PM).]

Basse
Squire
posted 04-29-11 04:11 PM CT (US)     13 / 40       
Yes, I used the monk-way in my test too. I can't figure why it isn't working.
Nixck
Squire
posted 04-29-11 04:30 PM CT (US)     14 / 40       
whats not working? are you still getting the unable to unload message? If so try using a different unit then the emperor in a barrel or using a stone, catapult 1 isntead of the proj, h cannoner.

Some things that seem to cause the unable to unload message are: the remove object effect, stop unit effect, and using a nonland unit (like a boat) for an icon in the units inventory. Not 100% on this though.

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 04-29-2011 @ 04:51 PM).]

Basse
Squire
posted 04-29-11 04:50 PM CT (US)     15 / 40       
I will try a few different objects later. I don't have time for more testing tonight.
Dtrungle
Squire
posted 04-29-11 05:08 PM CT (US)     16 / 40       
The downside that I find to this is the delay from multiplayer lag and that you cannot add in new stuff after the game has started as well as your hero has only 1 life. Other than that, this would be awesome for a map I'm working on.

~
[My Dropped RPG Project | Keltos - RPG] [My Finished Games | MGC09 - Where Am I + MGC11 - All For The Horse + Puzzle Racing] [My Current Project | Defense of The Towers]
~~~
A RPG Scenario You Should Play | Tsubasa's Tale | Another RPG Scenario You Should Play | IceQuest
Nixck
Squire
posted 04-29-11 05:27 PM CT (US)     17 / 40       
I don't understand what you mean Dtrungle, you can never add in new stuff once a map starts, and what do you mean 1hp?

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 04-29-2011 @ 06:16 PM).]

Bloodlock
Squire
posted 05-01-11 08:54 AM CT (US)     18 / 40       
Help plz! When I replace the negative ID with a non-negative and try to save the scenario in AOKTS, it crashes and an error message appear. Any ideas?
Dtrungle
Squire
posted 05-01-11 11:37 AM CT (US)     19 / 40       
I love the idea and trick but I'm quite aware of it's limitations, at least in my area of mapping.

In big multiplayer games that will have lag, clicking an icon to unload may not be registered on the first click. I had to spam click a bunch of times and then it unloaded 3+ seconds later in this map. However, this scenario may be an exception as there are a bunch of units on the map. So, the lag issue may actually not be there.

By 1 life I mean once the hero dies, the system breaks. Sure, you could duplicate it but if there's a lot of skills/players/heroes/other features, it would require some mega motivated designer.

About the adding new stuff, I meant you have to preplace all the skills inside the hero from start, even if they can or cannot use it. Then you would have to set it up so that the skills can gain levels.

For my map, I have 6 heroes, 6 players, 2 cpu armies, 4 skills for each hero, and a few other basic skills as well as an infinite respawn of heroes. That would be the most epic amount of trigger work ever if this trick was used in my map. Though, I am assuming a couple of things here. Who knows. It's just making the swtich from my system to this is a daunting task so I can't risk it.

@Bloodlock, can't help you there. Just be sure to save different copies often. Aokts can definitely bug up and screw your map.

~
[My Dropped RPG Project | Keltos - RPG] [My Finished Games | MGC09 - Where Am I + MGC11 - All For The Horse + Puzzle Racing] [My Current Project | Defense of The Towers]
~~~
A RPG Scenario You Should Play | Tsubasa's Tale | Another RPG Scenario You Should Play | IceQuest

[This message has been edited by Dtrungle (edited 05-01-2011 @ 11:39 AM).]

Basse
Squire
posted 05-01-11 01:17 PM CT (US)     20 / 40       
By 1 life I mean once the hero dies, the system breaks. Sure, you could duplicate it but if there's a lot of skills/players/heroes/other features, it would require some mega motivated designer.

For my map, I have 6 heroes, 6 players, 2 cpu armies, 4 skills for each hero, and a few other basic skills as well as an infinite respawn of heroes. That would be the most epic amount of trigger work ever if this trick was used in my map. Though, I am assuming a couple of things here. Who knows. It's just making the swtich from my system to this is a daunting task so I can't risk it.
I have an idea here. Use a new unit outside the battlefield. This one is for potions, armors, weapons, skills etc. Just hotkey the "Item Unit" and the "real unit" with ctrl+1 and ctrl+2, then you can easily swap between the two but at the same time cast a spell or equip an item.
Nixck
Squire
posted 05-02-11 10:42 AM CT (US)     21 / 40       
Oh now I see what you mean Dtrungle, yeah those are some limitations but it's not really that limiting if you make your map well. Also I think in that map the thing that is causing more lag is all the invisible tiles on the map and not the negative ID untis but maybe I'm wrong. I'm working on a multiplayer map now so I hope it doesn't lag to all hell as you are saying.
Dtrungle
Squire
posted 05-02-11 08:04 PM CT (US)     22 / 40       
There's not much to do if I require heroes to respawn indefinitely. :/

As for the lag, it really depends on the players themselves, the host, any computer players, and the map design/size/trigger work.

~
[My Dropped RPG Project | Keltos - RPG] [My Finished Games | MGC09 - Where Am I + MGC11 - All For The Horse + Puzzle Racing] [My Current Project | Defense of The Towers]
~~~
A RPG Scenario You Should Play | Tsubasa's Tale | Another RPG Scenario You Should Play | IceQuest
Nixck
Squire
posted 05-05-11 03:37 AM CT (US)     23 / 40       
Yeah that map seems to just lag in general, not just the unlimited unload effect.

P.S. here is a just for fun screen shot of my new multiplayer RPG/death match map based on diablo 2 that i've been working on
preparing the sacrifice

[This message has been edited by Nixck (edited 05-05-2011 @ 04:03 AM).]

Leif Ericson
Seraph Emeritus
posted 05-06-11 00:30 AM CT (US)     24 / 40       
That's a pretty cool shot!

~`o~|\  Join the fresh and exciting AI Ladder for its fourth season!
 `  |_\
       |    Learn the joy of AI scripting in my guide: The World of AI Scripting
______|______
 \        /
   .....Hinga Dinga Durgen! - SpongeBob
  `-=<.__.>=-
Sebastien
Dark Samurai
posted 05-06-11 08:11 AM CT (US)     25 / 40       
Nixck
Squire
posted 05-06-11 06:13 PM CT (US)     26 / 40       
thanks guys, I was about to submit it to the screenshot competition but I found out it's too late to add any more entries oh well maybe next year!
Leif Ericson
Seraph Emeritus
posted 05-07-11 00:44 AM CT (US)     27 / 40       
The Continuous Screenshot Competition is a lot more frequent than once a year. According to the rules you might not be able to use that shot now that you released it (maybe, not surely), but you can definitely make another one.

~`o~|\  Join the fresh and exciting AI Ladder for its fourth season!
 `  |_\
       |    Learn the joy of AI scripting in my guide: The World of AI Scripting
______|______
 \        /
   .....Hinga Dinga Durgen! - SpongeBob
  `-=<.__.>=-

[This message has been edited by Leif Ericson (edited 05-07-2011 @ 00:48 AM).]

Nixck
Squire
posted 05-13-11 01:57 PM CT (US)     28 / 40       
my bad everyone, i kept talking about scenario_t_c's aokts addon, but didn't even realize that the link on his page has been broken for a long time. Updated my post to include a link to my aokts file with his addon.
Basse
Squire
posted 05-25-11 11:22 AM CT (US)     29 / 40       
I have a question.

If you have 2 units with same negative ID, you could unload it unlimited times, right? Would this work for units as well? I mean, unloading unlimited numbers of militias or something? If so, would the "Change Object Name" effect affect all these militias, as they have the same ID?
Draconian Devil
Squire
(id: DraconainDevil)
posted 05-25-11 12:28 PM CT (US)     30 / 40       
Hey basse i tried it and it did not work but i was thinking vice versa....like you keep a unit first then change it into an arrow then keep two more units to end up with same id but this also proved to be futile...(I also wanted that unlimited units thing)...but maybe someday someone of us will surely find out and tell ....

()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
()()()()()()DRACONIANDEVIL()()()()()()
()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
trisatya
Squire
posted 05-25-11 11:59 PM CT (US)     31 / 40       
*steals pentagram idea*

____IN FLAMES____
WE TRUST!

StormWind Studios | BlackForest Studios
Nixck
Squire
posted 05-31-11 11:41 PM CT (US)     32 / 40       
@Basse, if you use a unit instead of a small projectile (just for the purpose of setting off triggers) then it will just keep "summoning" it but not producing new ones, unless you make a trigger to create new ones.

@Trisatya Mhmm don't think so, spent more hours then it should have trying to get it to work
Basse
Squire
posted 06-01-11 09:08 AM CT (US)     33 / 40       
Well, I tried my idea, and something rather weird happened. I got an unselectable unit called "DOPL" with 1/1 HP under the unit that had the negative ID units garrisoned inside. I couldn't control it, I could only select with with a comma. I tried to garrison it inside a tower and the game crashed. Unfortunately, the print I took got messed up and all you could see was green, red and black.

[This message has been edited by Basse (edited 06-01-2011 @ 09:10 AM).]

Nixck
Squire
posted 06-02-11 04:53 AM CT (US)     34 / 40       
The dreaded DOPL... this happened in one multiplayer map i made. The map was about controlling a fireball projectile and running over other players horses to kill them, but the proj, ffg would always inevitably turn into a dopl and i don't know why or how. The dopl seemed to be, like you said, uncontrollable, moveable, or of any kind of use. It beats me why this happens.
Basse
Squire
posted 06-02-11 05:24 AM CT (US)     35 / 40       
What is this DOPL unit? What is it's purpose? I guess someone with data-editing experience should know this
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