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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires III Discussion » AoK pop system vrs AoM.
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Topic Subject:AoK pop system vrs AoM.
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Lord_Cyrus
Squire
posted 01-22-05 11:01 PM CT (US)         
Which one do you guys think AoE III should use? I don't see how the AoK system has any advantages over AoM. In AoM units can counter two ways instead of one. This makes the game much deeper in that regard. Some people argue that this makes the armies to small but that can easily be fixed by making the overall pop cap higher.

Lord Cyrus

[This message has been edited by Lord_Cyrus (edited 01-22-2005 @ 11:03 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-25-05 12:59 PM CT (US)     26 / 68       
i doubt u gonna see huge battle in inter game or higher. the fact its that only noob VS. noob will u ever gonna see big battle.

here an example of noob game:

Player A: hey can u wait for another 20 min?
Player B: Why?
Player A: CAz my army is not large enought.
Player B: sure, but can u give me 400 gold?
Player A: okei, np.
Player B: Thx. i'll move my 150 HI to the center.
Player A: i'll be there with my 150 HC a bit later.

note: most likely this game took about 30-40min settign up the army. n the battle lasted less then 2 min.


here a few example of a low inter owning a noob:

example 1)
Player A: omg, no rush!
Player B: it only 2 HI!!its call a "raid" u noob.
*player A went to garrsion all his villi in TC*
*Player B slowly destroy his econ building (eg.lumber,farm)*
Player B: u suck!
Player A: ur gay! rushing is gay!
*1min later*
Player A:F*&K You
*player A resign*

example 2)
Player A: can u give me 200 food?
Player B: err....we're enemy.......remember?
Player A: yeah.but i need them to make villi.
Player B: omg, screw this.
*player B resign*

example 3)
Player A: hi, r u good?
Player B: yeah, why do u ask?
Player A: okei, caz most noob can't read the title.
Player B: what title?
Player A: the game host title "No Noob! decent player!"
Player B: Its okei, i'm decent ^^
Playey B: btw, what's a noob?
Player A: it mean newbie.
Player B: ah, ic, thx.
*2 min later*
Player B: Cheat add 5000 food
Player A: what r u doing?
Player B: what?
Player A: r u trying to cheat resource online?
Player B: itsn't that how u get more foods?
*10 sec later*
*Player A Resign*

[This message has been edited by WH_demoneyekyo (edited 01-25-2005 @ 01:01 PM).]

ajaxthegreater
Squire
posted 01-25-05 03:45 PM CT (US)     27 / 68       
That is hilarious. Is that diologue real? Quitting because of two enemies, trading recources with the enemy. Funny.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diem nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut lacreet dolore. In the middle of a room stands a suicide. Magna aliguam erat volutpat. Ut wisis enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tution ullam corper suscipit lobortis. Eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum delenit au duis dolore te feugat nulla facilisi. I began at awareness.
petard_rusher
Squire
posted 01-25-05 05:24 PM CT (US)     28 / 68       
well, i guess if your playingg with newbs like that you wont even need a big army no matter what your playing, but in AOK if the people playing the gmae are evenly matched (even if they are experts) there is a good chance that the game will last long enough to get big battles.
WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-25-05 06:20 PM CT (US)     29 / 68       
only noob-low inter games involed huge battle.
if u see an inter vs. inter having mega huge army fighting each other. they r low inter!

most good player shoulkd realize a huge army is not benifical compare to samll army.

Chino
Squire
(id: hairic)
posted 01-25-05 06:53 PM CT (US)     30 / 68       
Eh?
WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-25-05 07:16 PM CT (US)     31 / 68       
hairic, don't expect a reply when ur simply saying " Eh?"
if u don't understand something , state what u don't understand or disagree with. if u have a differ opinion on something, back it up.
Chino
Squire
(id: hairic)
posted 01-25-05 08:06 PM CT (US)     32 / 68       
The "Eh?" basically refers to everything you posted.
Gordon
HG Alumnus
(id: Gordon B)
posted 01-25-05 08:21 PM CT (US)     33 / 68       
k, explain why having a "small army" is a good idea in DM...

And I've watched enough expert RM recs to know they have like 60+ military units if they get to pop. Considering every dead unit gets replaced by spamming military buildings, I consider that a "large army"... You might not.

btw, I don't see a huge difference in army size between even rook games and expert games. Maybe a rook has like 100-120 vils instead of 120-150, but that's not a huge difference. Depends where you draw the line, though. I consider anyone under like 1750 a rook...

[This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 01-25-2005 @ 08:21 PM).]

WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-25-05 10:23 PM CT (US)     34 / 68       
DM is not a standard setting.

A huge army require lots of resource & most importantly time. if u plan to amke huge army, while i can just simply raid ur econ build with small army & gaining valuble terr.

reason why large army suck:

-much harder to micro
-require more resource
-take up time
-take forever to set formation
-move too slow (mainly caz of formation)

reason why small army is nice:
-much easier to micro, excellent for raid
-it tend to move relative faster compare to large army
-u can build it in a much shorter time
-require less resource

basically very unlikely will u be able to make ur huge army, if enemy is agressive!!! It much better off if u build small army n raid or attack & retreat, while u work on ur econ, n build more samll army size. when attacking, its better to attack by spliting larger army into 2 smaller army.

Gordon
HG Alumnus
(id: Gordon B)
posted 01-25-05 10:45 PM CT (US)     35 / 68       
Can I ask A) what your rate is and B) What you consider an "Inter" rate?

Like I said, I've seen enough expert recs to know that they go to pop with their armies... Who cares about micro when I've got 5+ of every building spamming units at you and I just move rally points around and switch up to counter your units and micro a tiny bit?

I'm just a stupid rook, though. So I know nothing.

btw, I'm not talking about like Feudal on Arabia or anything. I'm talking about late-Castle to post-Imp where you're at pop (unless you go up first or whatever).

How can you say a 20 unit army will beat a 40 unit one? Why are you wasting pop not building units?

Also btw: Where did you say "standard settings only!"? DM is pretty standard, imho. At least in that a decent amount of people play it. You get army highs of like 180 or so sometimes (depends on the civ, obviously).

[This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 01-25-2005 @ 10:47 PM).]

WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-26-05 00:23 AM CT (US)     36 / 68       
who care about micro?

i'll tell u who the fu$k care!!!
Me & good player u noob!!!!!
micro is one of the most important thing in RTS!

i'm not playing aok (it's too old, played like 4 yr ago)
I'm playing ron atm. In ron, with good micro, u can take down a enemy with 3x the army size easily if the enemy don't know how to micro!

for me an inter in ron is typically 1000+ games online. for aok, maybe like 1800 games online. but u can't really judge base on the amount of game. rating don't mean much to me (atleast in ron anyway).

last note: well, if DM is pretty standard, then i guess most aok player perfer seeing huge battle. (might as well enable cheat online). srry if i'm being offensive, but i'ma ron player, in ron, most player r skilled & choose gameplay over everything. thus ron is the best RTS in term of gameplay. it have almost unlimited strat.

If u play ron online u'll know what i mean. but don't play the campain, it suck like shit.

EDIT: Why are you wasting pop not building units?

its not a waste! imo, YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER KEEP BUILDING UNIT ALL THE TIME. u gotta spend ur resource wisely, know whats more important. for instance, if ur enemy econ is much better then urs, n u know he ahve a sizable army to defend. why would u build more unit? to invade? . u should instead try spending those rescource on econ n try to match the enemy econ. caz if u just simply keep spamming unit, it'll just a matter of time when ur enemy out boom u.
bascially, build unit only if u thinks its more important then anything else & that it'll put into effect asap (defense, offense, raid, watever it may be).

[This message has been edited by WH_demoneyekyo (edited 01-26-2005 @ 00:52 AM).]

Gordon
HG Alumnus
(id: Gordon B)
posted 01-26-05 01:05 AM CT (US)     37 / 68       
Bah, I wasn't saying micro is useless... in early ages basically you're microing your army the vast majority of the time. But when you get to the point where you have the res to constantly be spamming masses of units, you don't have the time to micro things as carefully. I don't care how good you are, in AoC you can't beat 50 units that are being constantly replaced with 20 (unless it's like 20 FU cav vs. 50 unupgraded archers for some stupid reason and they don't put their rally points right). With a 140+ vil econ, you can be spamming out of a ton of buildings.

When you've got to keep cueing units, microing your vils to keep your econ alive, defend against raids, raid yourself, fight your main battle(s), fight a few side ones, help your allies, ask for res/help/etc., change up your units to be countering correctly, research the right techs, etc., it's very hard to spend more than a few seconds every 10 microing your army. Yeah, you micro it as best you can (bring cav back from spears, attack siege with cav, target siege to buildings, patrol archers in, etc.), but you can't focus your entire attention on it anymore.

Age games have always been about econ. Sure, better micro can easily win a game, but it's because you can hit their econ way more easily if you win the battle.

And micro isn't just armies. It's also micoing your vils well so that they gather optimum res. I know that in games like the WC series that econ isn't that big a focus, but I personally find it far more entertaining to need to micro my army so much, but also have lots of things to worry about in terms of econ as well.

I was talking about AoC. If you haven't played AoC ever (since you stopped playing AoK 4 years ago), then I don't think you can go around giving advice for it. You say "only n00bs have big armies", but you ignore the fact that in AoC experts have big ones too. I guess AoC is just a n00b game then (to which you say "of course, lol", and to which I reply, then why do you care about AoEIII? ).

RoN is not AoC and AoEIII is not going to be RoN. It's a different game. You think RoN is the best RTS ever, k good for you. This is AoKH, not RoNH...

btw, I know people who've played like 10x the games as me at AoC that I can pwn without trying... Experience isn't always as important as it would seem. Like you said, you can't really judge on that. I prefer ratings to judge AoC skill. (I suck on that basis, of course, since I get bored of rated and haven't gotten above 1644...). If you can reach 1750, I consider that you know how to do everything correctly.

Quote:

its not a waste! imo, YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER KEEP BUILDING UNIT ALL THE TIME. u gotta spend ur resource wisely, know whats more important. for instance, if ur enemy econ is much better then urs, n u know he ahve a sizable army to defend. why would u build more unit? to invade? . u should instead try spending those rescource on econ n try to match the enemy econ. caz if u just simply keep spamming unit, it'll just a matter of time when ur enemy out boom u.


k, in AoC, you don't have much to spend your res on aside from military. Sure, econ upgrades cost a bit, but there are only a few.

I was talking about when you get to like a 140 vil econ. You've got enough res to be spamming units like crazy. The person who loses many times in lower skilled games is the one who can't keep up the spamming (AoT has AQ, so it doesn't matter as much there). Once you get to like grook level, though, most people can keep up the spam non-stop while still microing their econ and their army.

If they've got a sizable army at home to defend, why is it sitting there? That's as wasteful as having vils not working. They spent res on that army and defending isn't doing much for them. They kill your army, then what? They attack with a weakened army? Sorry, but I've got mine replaced by then.

Oh, and the "DM is for n00bs" thing is hilarious. I guess that's why it was included in WCL and WCL2... I guess that's why it requires insane amounts of speed and micro.

What's requires more skill to micro? 30 units or 150?

And if you say "DM is cheating, lolz. You get infinite res no econ n00b", I'm not even going to bother discussing this further...

[This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 01-26-2005 @ 01:12 AM).]

petard_rusher
Squire
posted 01-26-05 01:19 AM CT (US)     38 / 68       
don't feed the trolls?
Gordon
HG Alumnus
(id: Gordon B)
posted 01-26-05 01:24 AM CT (US)     39 / 68       
They looked hungry?

Good point, though. Arguing in this forum is sorta silly.

TOAO_DaVe
Squire
(id: Tonto_DaVe)
posted 01-26-05 01:36 AM CT (US)     40 / 68       
i'll tell u who the fu$k care!!!
Me & good player u noob!!!!!
micro is one of the most important thing in RTS!

Wow, good job with that. I felt that was pretty obvious, but micro doesn't allow you to with an army of 20 versus an army of 60 or 70, in the game we play - AoK/C.

Also, even better job with the way you insulted a staff member, going against the CoC. Watch yourself.

i'm not playing aok (it's too old, played like 4 yr ago)

That is the worst reason I have ever seen. The game is old, so you abandon it? Do you abandon your father because he is more than 4 years old? I would hope not.

I'm playing ron atm. In ron, with good micro, u can take down a enemy with 3x the army size easily if the enemy don't know how to micro!

Wow! Good job! This is AoKH, not RoNH. I am playing AoK, at the moment. In AoK, with good micro, like I said before, you fail to take down the enemy with 3x the size of your own army, even if the enemy can't micro!

for me an inter in ron is typically 1000+ games online. for aok, maybe like 1800 games online. but u can't really judge base on the amount of game. rating don't mean much to me (atleast in ron anyway).

Welcome to AoKH, I hope you enjoy your stay. Here at AoKH, we play Age of Empires II: Age of Kings, or the expansion to the game, The Conquerors expansion. You support RoN over AoK because it is newer. Good for you, too bad that doesn't relate to any of us at AoKH.

Ratings mean, and show a lot on the Zone for AoK/C. If someone has played a million games online, it doesn't neccessarily mean they can beat a person who has played just a 1,000 games. I have played AoC since 2001, yet I am not better than all the people who have gotten the game more recently. You may choose to ignore ratings, then okay, but here, at AoKH, we play AoK/C, and it is not RoN, so stop making random claims about a game that has nothing to do with this forum, or this site, at all.

last note: well, if DM is pretty standard, then i guess most aok player perfer seeing huge battle. (might as well enable cheat online). srry if i'm being offensive, but i'ma ron player, in ron, most player r skilled & choose gameplay over everything. thus ron is the best RTS in term of gameplay. it have almost unlimited strat.

Stop making up random claims about this game - you don't even play it. Only post if you know what you are talking about, and it is obvious that you don't.

People play DM for all sorts of reasons - the fact that you are able to attack straight away, if not something else. You see, you don't play AoK, you don't play DM. You don't play, so don't talk about it. Just because you start off with thousands of resources doesn't mean it is like cheating. Guess what it means? that you start off with thousands of resources. That is all.

Tell me how you expect to win DM, this is if you decided to play a game so you could begin to understand what you are dealing with, while you quickly use up all your resources within 5 to 10 minutes? By making an economy. Just like every other game-type - you must have an economy.

If u play ron online u'll know what i mean. but don't play the campain, it suck like shit.

If you played AoK/C online you'll know what I mean. The fact that we play AoK, we play the game which is recommended you do at this site - Age of Kings Heaven, a site dedicated, for and about AoK means we should be trying to discuss this game - AoK, and not RoN, as RoN doesn't even have anything to do with the Age series.

its not a waste! imo, YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER KEEP BUILDING UNIT ALL THE TIME. u gotta spend ur resource wisely, know whats more important. for instance, if ur enemy econ is much better then urs, n u know he ahve a sizable army to defend. why would u build more unit? to invade? . u should instead try spending those rescource on econ n try to match the enemy econ. caz if u just simply keep spamming unit, it'll just a matter of time when ur enemy out boom u.
bascially, build unit only if u thinks its more important then anything else & that it'll put into effect asap (defense, offense, raid, watever it may be).

Quote where someone, anyone, said "you must keep building military units all the time, as they are more important than your economy". You are now talking about something by yourself, like Gordon has already said, you were thinking, you were assuming, wrong. We aren't talking about just any time in the game, but a time where you get to like a 140 vil econ.

In conclusion, try to realise that AoK is not RoN. Try to realise that people can have opinions that differ to yours. Try to realise that you should try to play a game that is actually associated with the topic - Ao3, in some way.


Signed,
DaVe.
WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-26-05 01:49 AM CT (US)     41 / 68       
i never say ron is the best RTS (since it have a shitty server), i say its the best RTS in term of gameplay.
aok & ron does have lots of similarity, thus i assume that certain strat should be the same.

not sure about u, but i play in a style in which, 3 sec makes a differ. n my speed is typcially 3-4x faster then typcal ron player. if i ever find myself into huge mega army battle in AOE III (in standard game, not DM), i'll ofically apologize to u(if i see u in aoe3 heaven forum)

I never say DM is cheating, but tis just that is too boring, not much strat. i know its fun seeing battle, thats why after i finsih the game, i'll use cheat or make custom map to see some fun (huge battle invole like 700 unit)

btw,

do u memorize ur research/unit cost? caz i do.
do u ever move back & heal ur injured army? caz i do.
do u ever sacafic urself so ur team can win? caz i do.
(there r other, which i'm too lazy to type)

althought these stuff might seem a bit useless, but they r very powerful sometime (i would agree to this in almost all RTS game).

WH_demoneyekyo
Squire
posted 01-26-05 01:55 AM CT (US)     42 / 68       
If i was being offensive, i'm sorry. but to me, i personally think that aoe series does ahev lots of similarity to ron. thus i would assume that certains strat apply.
TOAO_DaVe
Squire
(id: Tonto_DaVe)
posted 01-26-05 03:19 AM CT (US)     43 / 68       
i never say ron is the best RTS (since it have a shitty server), i say its the best RTS in term of gameplay.
aok & ron does have lots of similarity, thus i assume that certain strat should be the same.

Well, you wrongly assume.

not sure about u, but i play in a style in which, 3 sec makes a differ. n my speed is typcially 3-4x faster then typcal ron player. if i ever find myself into huge mega army battle in AOE III (in standard game, not DM), i'll ofically apologize to u(if i see u in aoe3 heaven forum)

Once again, welcome to AoKH - this forum, and this site is dedicated to the game Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings, and to its expansion pack The Conquerors Expansion. My nickname is DaVe, and I am a moderator at the Scenario Design forum for AoK/C. If you ever decide to realise that this is about AoK/C and the rest of the Age series, please tell me.

I never say DM is cheating, but tis just that is too boring, not much strat. i know its fun seeing battle, thats why after i finsih the game, i'll use cheat or make custom map to see some fun (huge battle invole like 700 unit)

Did you actually fully read my post?

btw,

do u memorize ur research/unit cost? caz i do.
do u ever move back & heal ur injured army? caz i do.
do u ever sacafic urself so ur team can win? caz i do.
(there r other, which i'm too lazy to type)

althought these stuff might seem a bit useless, but they r very powerful sometime (i would agree to this in almost all RTS game).

How can it seem "useless" if you win a game by sacrificing yourself? What does this even have to do with this topic. At all?


Signed,
DaVe.
Lord_Cyrus
Squire
posted 01-26-05 03:42 AM CT (US)     44 / 68       
Um guys your going way off topic. This thread is about pop systems not deathmatch so lets start off again. What if ES got rid of settlements, raised the pop limit to 500-1000 but kept units costing more that 1 pop? This way you can have big armies and keep the depth that having units cost different pop creates.

Lord Cyrus
petard_rusher
Squire
posted 01-26-05 08:22 AM CT (US)     45 / 68       
well, you gotta remember that the pop limit isnt there to becasue ES doesnt want you to build more units, its there because ES knows you can't build more units without making the game slow down because someones computer can't handle it (in multiplayer everyone will run at the speed of the slowest guy), so while a 500-1000 unit limit with untis costing more then 1 would be great I doubt it can happen because few computers could handle it.
Gordon
HG Alumnus
(id: Gordon B)
posted 01-26-05 09:08 AM CT (US)     46 / 68       
Yeah, it's sorta OT, but it relates to the topic.

Quote:

do u memorize ur research/unit cost? caz i do.
do u ever move back & heal ur injured army? caz i do.
do u ever sacafic urself so ur team can win? caz i do.
(there r other, which i'm too lazy to type)


...
Dude, every rook on the Zone knows the basic costs of everything (except the useless techs/units)+ the amount of seconds it takes to research some of them + things like how many vil secs it takes to gather what res and the tech tree and bonuses of each civ, etc..

AoC doesn't have as good healing stuff since monks are expensive and easy to kill. I'll do it sometimes, but why not just make more units and keep raiding? If your units are healing, you're playing defensive. You usually die if you're too defensive in Castle...

RoN is very different. Just from playing the demo I know that. There are far more techs to research and econ is, while more complex, quite different in terms of micro. Units also go through many many changes. In AoC, there are only 4 ages and the "big" battles only happen in the later 2. In RoN I assume you have to constantly poor res into research so as not to fall behind. (This is one reason people like DM, since everything is researched, so you get the full power of your civ's tech tree.)

Back more on topic:
I'd prefer AoC-style.

I'd also prefer getting rid of the settlements thing. I hate booming in AoT because your TCs are never by any res.

[This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 01-26-2005 @ 09:09 AM).]

Cataphract887
Squire
posted 01-26-05 10:36 AM CT (US)     47 / 68       
lol,even in RON there is no reason not to stam aok style.infact,its veen worse,since you will just build an insane econ like 999+ if i can have some booming space and then jsut have dozens of mil builds queued with the rally on there enemy base,and since they attack anything they encounter,its just spam warz


sure,i dont play RON online and not more than 20 games,but does it have a recorded game system?if so,give me a few links to some games supporting your point of view.

RTS stands for Resource Gathering System,and the quicker you convert resource into military and then kill his econ,the better you are i havnt seen any RTS ever that hasnt been this way

petard_rusher
Squire
posted 01-26-05 11:13 AM CT (US)     48 / 68       
yes, basic economics, liquid assets are bad, you want to invest your assests in units and techs where they can do you some good, not have them sitting around where they are worthless.

Quoted from The Ethics of Greed, Alpha Centauri:

resources exist to be consumed...

doctorgonzo
Squire
posted 01-26-05 09:09 PM CT (US)     49 / 68       
I think microing versus large armies is entirely possible.
Consider units like Mongol Mangudai/Cavalry Archers and Jannisaries. Dancing them back and forth between unit range and practicing hit/run tactics works pretty well.
Granted, you probably wont survive, but the point of micro is using as little units as possible to maximize your kill ratio. if 5 Mangudai can kill 15 Swordsmen, or 10 Knights then you're winning economically and offensively.
I guess you could take me with a grain of salt, I'm not very good at this game.

Tonight we dance, for tomorrow they release the dogs.

ESO2. I'm not that great.

Lord_Cyrus
Squire
posted 01-26-05 10:09 PM CT (US)     50 / 68       

Quote:

well, you gotta remember that the pop limit isnt there to becasue ES doesnt want you to build more units, its there because ES knows you can't build more units without making the game slow down because someones computer can't handle it (in multiplayer everyone will run at the speed of the slowest guy), so while a 500-1000 unit limit with untis costing more then 1 would be great I doubt it can happen because few computers could handle it.

Well if the pop was 500-600 the effective pop would be 300-400 which todays comps should handle.


Lord Cyrus
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