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Topic Subject:Philosophy
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NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-12-08 10:08 PM CT (US)         
Philosophy...it can depress the hell out of you........but lets talk about it...

Today's question is: What is good and evil?

Be as general as you like and go off on tangents if you must but make it interesting...don't forget insightful metaphors!

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro
AuthorReplies:
Gwame
Squire
posted 09-12-08 10:11 PM CT (US)     1 / 90       
That's far too vague and generic to insight a decent philosophical discussion.

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NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-12-08 10:24 PM CT (US)     2 / 90       
meh...we'll start with the basics.

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro

[This message has been edited by NeverFinished (edited 09-12-2008 @ 10:25 PM).]

Aro
AoKH Dictator
posted 09-12-08 10:51 PM CT (US)     3 / 90       
Here I half-expected the topic post to only say "Why?"
Today's question is: What is good and evil?
Good is what society defines as good, positive, evil is what society defines as evil, negative. Relative and whatnot, the ol' black and white. *drinks tea*

Your attractive master.
"Because I before E is a LIE!!!"

[This message has been edited by Aro (edited 09-12-2008 @ 10:51 PM).]

Gwame
Squire
posted 09-12-08 10:57 PM CT (US)     4 / 90       
See what I mean? With such a topic, we can only be too simple, or too long and complicated. However, I have to disagree with Aro's comment on how society determines what is good/evil. One's own moral compass (plus their logic, empathy, etc) should lead one away from the obvious crimes, e.g. murder, theft, rape, and so on. You could always argue that animals commit such acts, and this may be true, but they lack the brain functions to actually empathise (or even analyse, in most cases).

MY NAME IS GWAME I AM AOKH MEMBER SINCE 2004 AND I HAVE MANY POSTS
BEST SIG OF 2008 AND 2ND BEST SIG OF 2009 (SAME SIG LOLOL)
BEST SIG OF 2008
92% of teenagers have moved on to rap music. If you're on of the 8% that still listens to real music, copy this into your signature.
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sly_guy
Squire
posted 09-12-08 10:58 PM CT (US)     5 / 90       
Good is the opposite of evil; evil is the opposite of good. They are mutually exclusive, and, what's more is that there is an in-between.

Can it get any more vague than that?
Philosophy...it can depress the hell out of you........but lets talk about it...
So, you're basically trying to get us all depressed? Well.... its working. In my case, at least.

- ک

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morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 09-13-08 01:33 AM CT (US)     6 / 90       
Good and evil are very vague statements anyway, like anyone said.

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Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 09-13-08 02:17 AM CT (US)     7 / 90       
Eh... I'm obviously going to disagree with Aro (and most other moral relativists). This is probably not going to end well should we get into an argument, so I'll just leave it at that.

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
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morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 09-13-08 02:39 AM CT (US)     8 / 90       
No, do. Everyone should speak out, even if their opinion is unpopular.

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Aro
AoKH Dictator
posted 09-13-08 03:33 AM CT (US)     9 / 90       
Eh... I'm obviously going to disagree with Aro (and most other moral relativists). This is probably not going to end well should we get into an argument, so I'll just leave it at that.
Pfft, come on man, I'm leaving it open. There's no answer everyone's going to agree on, and thus it's just as productive as discussing politics, but I'm letting this continue for once. Even if it ends up in an argument that requires me to close it, let's enjoy the journey of philosophical discussion while we still can, huh?

Defend your philosophy with reasoned logic. If somebody else defends their opinion with reasoned logic too, then we're getting somewhere; but if somebody blindly defends their opinion like a dick and ignites that "I hat u" mode, then we're going nowhere.

(If it's too vague, post something we should discuss that's less vague.)
No, do. Everyone should speak out, even if their opinion is unpopular.
Agreed. It doesn't matter if people agree or disagree, and if I see folks itching to strangle one-another, I'll just close it. *shrugs*

Your attractive master.
"Because I before E is a LIE!!!"

[This message has been edited by Aro (edited 09-13-2008 @ 03:43 AM).]

Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-13-08 05:19 AM CT (US)     10 / 90       
Good is what society defines as good, positive, evil is what society defines as evil, negative. Relative and whatnot, the ol' black and white.
Ouch for the study of morals, Aro! Rather, good and evil are perceptions unique for each individual defined more or less by the society and/or upbringing. A part of morals are defined by groups of humans, as in, society of some kind and some are more personal in nature. This should not be considered the same as legitimity, as laws only define what deeds are to be sanctioned, whereas one might do morally right deeds yet still break the law. This is well stated by Kohlberg in his theory of the stages of moral.

Another thing is stating morals can be universal. Although it's intriguing, by far some of the only things common to all societies on Earth are perception of colours and popularity of copulation.
We shouldn't ignore Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau and the social contract! (I oppose totalitarianism though, I'm still fond of democracy)

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
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[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 09-13-2008 @ 05:29 AM).]

Ornlu
Recreational Procreator
posted 09-13-08 05:39 AM CT (US)     11 / 90       
Good is the natural, evil is the unnatural.

None of us are free, one of us is chained.
Lord Fenris
Banned
posted 09-13-08 05:46 AM CT (US)     12 / 90       
Good is evil, and evil is good.
NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-13-08 09:13 AM CT (US)     13 / 90       
There's no answer everyone's going to agree on
The object of philosophy is to not become fixated on one point, regard it as your opinion and argue until the bitter end for it. So there shouldn't be an answer that everyone agrees on. The point is to look at things on a larger scale and and argue for all sides...

Soooo...why do we need/not need good and evil?

*cough*
Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro
Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 09-13-08 06:36 PM CT (US)     14 / 90       
Well, here goes then.

I've always felt that when a lot of people claim to be moral relativists, they're talking more about scruples tacked onto moral absolutism.

My position is that first and foremost, human life is sacred. To take it except in self defense is what I would consider Evil. The same applies to freedom and property, to lesser degrees.

Let's take an example, and talk about Pakistani honor killings. Women are being shot, stoned, and buried alive for things the local culture finds dishonorable.

I'm going to make the assumption that all the forumers reading this find the practice of honor killings... distasteful... at the least. But why? If morals change based on culture, then aren't the people perpetrating these acts in fact doing something Good, trying to regain their honor?

I realize this sounds like it's turning into an appeal to emotion, but I feel that lines need to be drawn somewhere. When I talk about moral absolutism, that's what I'm talking about: Lines drawn that are unmistakably Evil to cross.
but if somebody blindly defends their opinion like a dick and ignites that "I hat u" mode, then we're going nowhere.

"I hat u" mode activated.

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
(Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-13-08 08:42 PM CT (US)     15 / 90       
"I hat u" mode activated.
lol...I really laughed out loud for that actually...

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro
Fattybryce
Squire
posted 09-13-08 11:39 PM CT (US)     16 / 90       
Good and evil are binary opposites. You need one to determine the other.

The Wall

coming soon
morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:01 AM CT (US)     17 / 90       
My position is that first and foremost, human life is sacred. To take it except in self defense is what I would consider Evil. The same applies to freedom and property, to lesser degrees.
Okay. What about death penalty? Is the state of Texas evil?

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Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-14-08 02:37 AM CT (US)     18 / 90       
Good is the natural, evil is the unnatural.
I refer you to the so-called naturalistic fallacy. Thank you wikipedia, again, for providing basic information instantly on the 'net. I think good is the natural if it can be justified, but with humans especially it's difficult to say what exactly is natural and what is unnatural. It's not like we're hunter-gatherers or anything and we're all using computers.
Is the state of Texas evil?
Nobody likes wide generalisations where they're not necessary. The state of Texas is something we've imagined and then put plaques that say 'now entering/leaving Texas'. I think the death penalty shows magnificently how the law is not the same as the morally good.

Personally I think the only way to reach a social contract that works is concluding that human life is sacred and that taking it away for any possible reason is abominable. (Ofcourse this leads to the problem that in some situations killing a human being might save several human beings from being killed, which is not the case with death penalty, mind you.) I just think this is the only way for the human species to be socially happy, and humans are social in nature.
In case of accusations in order to have me hoisted by my own petard: A human is not a human if not brought up with other humans, and a human using a computer is as much human as a hunter-gatherer is. This I postulate, argue if you will.
I'm going to make the assumption that all the forumers reading this find the practice of honor killings... distasteful... at the least. But why? If morals change based on culture, then aren't the people perpetrating these acts in fact doing something Good, trying to regain their honor?
My question: is something inherently morally good just because it's a part of a culture? Can't cultures have traditions and habits that aren't necessarily good? I think they are similar to gossip: they start off from small, nearly meaningless things and then bloat into something that seems more important than it is, thanks to reinforcement by several people continuing it. (And who of you have ever heard benevolent gossip?)

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
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[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 09-14-2008 @ 02:58 AM).]

Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 09-14-08 02:42 AM CT (US)     19 / 90       
Well... I was hoping to not have to get into all of this, but what I wanted the line to read was "To take innocent life..." That then goes on to the definition of "innocent," and that's another whole issue of initiation of force. Let's define "innocence" here as simply anyone who has not taken freedom or property or life from anyone, except in self defense.

Now you see my hesitancy hinges mainly on the fact that this recursiveness is incredibly difficult to explain.

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
(Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 09-14-08 03:03 AM CT (US)     20 / 90       
Humans are also very warlike in nature, dont forget that.

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four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 09-14-08 04:48 AM CT (US)     21 / 90       
I don't believe we are. Humans attached to ideologies are warlike, but in our natural state we're, well, mostly harmless.

When Columbus found the Americas, he was amazed by how peaceable and friendly the natives were. We have writings from crewmembers that describe the natives' generosity to Columbus and his crew. They had no concept of things like genocide and eugenics.
morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 09-14-08 05:03 AM CT (US)     22 / 90       
By warlike I meant prone to violence. If you claim the maya or aztec culture's not violent, then, well, you're just plain wrong. They didn't have so many organized wars in our definition, but they found another outlet for their violence.
Nobody likes wide generalisations where they're not necessary. The state of Texas is something we've imagined and then put plaques that say 'now entering/leaving Texas'. I think the death penalty shows magnificently how the law is not the same as the morally good.
It was a random example. But I can rephrase the question to: Are the lawmakers of Texas evil? Because from what i read, you said the law isn't based on morals.

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Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
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Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 09:32 AM CT (US)     23 / 90       
Humans are also very warlike in nature
No, we are what we choose to be.

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach
Scud
Primus inter pares
posted 09-14-08 09:55 AM CT (US)     24 / 90       
The definition of what human nature is varies from ideologies and schools of thought - there is not much consensus on the subject.

_ Scuddles: Rhymes with huggles _
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"Anyway, Scud's not mean, it's not in his nature...he is a bit eccentric though!" - Anastasia
NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-14-08 10:00 AM CT (US)     25 / 90       
My question: is something inherently morally good just because it's a part of a culture? Can't cultures have traditions and habits that aren't necessarily good?


I think that you are able to call anything good and it will become good. Lets say a culture is sacrificing a human for some reason. The sacrifice might feel pain, and suffer, but it is possible that they might enjoy it because of the purpose, whatever it may be? The same goes for the people who are sacrificing them; they might see the pain and suffering with more of a positive connotation than we do...

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro
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