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Topic Subject:Philosophy
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NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-12-08 10:08 PM CT (US)         
Philosophy...it can depress the hell out of you........but lets talk about it...

Today's question is: What is good and evil?

Be as general as you like and go off on tangents if you must but make it interesting...don't forget insightful metaphors!

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro
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Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 10:01 AM CT (US)     26 / 90       
So you're saying that human sacrifice is acceptable, so long as it is performed behind closed doors by consenting adults?

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach
Scud
Primus inter pares
posted 09-14-08 10:07 AM CT (US)     27 / 90       
Can't cultures have traditions and habits that aren't necessarily good?
Well they'd be judged not "necessarily good" by our culture - our norms and values would differ to theirs. So thus we would look at the actions of say, human sacrfice, different to how the Aztecs viewed it as we would have a different set of norms and values and we would of been socialised to accept these, would we not?

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Ilmarinen
Squire
(id: Cilibinarii)
posted 09-14-08 10:12 AM CT (US)     28 / 90       
Good is what I like, and evil is what I hate.

Cilibinarii
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NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-14-08 11:03 AM CT (US)     29 / 90       
So you're saying that human sacrifice is acceptable, so long as it is performed behind closed doors by consenting adults?
If its what the culture believes in, and they think its morally acceptable...yes. And as long as they are part of that culture, they don't have to be consenting. If someone doesn't want to pay their taxes, even though its a good thing, and they have enough money, they'll be forced to sooner or later.

Human sacrifice obviously isn't morally acceptable by our standards so it is harder for us to understand, which is why I think you posed the question in a slightly sarcastic and arbitrary manner..

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-14-08 11:54 AM CT (US)     30 / 90       
Humans are also very warlike in nature, dont forget that.
Humans are afraid and paranoid, not warlike. Wars only work when demonising works.
Well they'd be judged not "necessarily good" by our culture - our norms and values would differ to theirs. So thus we would look at the actions of say, human sacrfice, different to how the Aztecs viewed it as we would have a different set of norms and values and we would of been socialised to accept these, would we not?
I'm not saying all values of the western civilisation are good. To start off Martin Luther King-ish, I have a dream that one day humans will have a consensus of morals thanks to globalisation, and that no culture will have morals that are demeaning to humans (or animals for that matter).

I believe that the Mexica (Aztecs) for example had sacrifice practices because of fear. And that fear had maybe been laid down and fostered by people generations ago by a way or another, most probably (excuse the cynicism) by the reigning high-class bitches for reasons of self-interest. The 'western world' had its times with this, too! And even today we can see the 'dog eat dog' trend in westernised societies, so it's not like western civilisation is impervious to criticism either.

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morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 09-14-08 12:08 PM CT (US)     31 / 90       
Good is what I like, and evil is what I hate.
It might sound weird, but this makes total sense. Good and evil, for me, are vague words used to describe foes (evil) and oneself (good).

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Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 01:46 PM CT (US)     32 / 90       
The human has evolved to be able to rapidly class people, places and ideas into "them" or "us", based on very little information. In a past age, it was vitally important to be able to tell who or what was on your side, and what wasn't, without having to wait a moment to think. Going back on this behaviour of creating instant prejudices and friend/foe differentiation in an instant takes some effort, but it doesn't make it an excuse.

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach

[This message has been edited by Eaglehaslanded (edited 09-14-2008 @ 01:50 PM).]

Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 01:49 PM CT (US)     33 / 90       
Good and Evil... all just perception. Its just a way for people to generalize there ideas on what they think right and wrong is. Right and wrong is different in everyones eyes.. its what they perceive. Generally "good" things are things that have a positive outcome, usually benefiting you or others. Evil on the other hand, is something done that benefits none, and usually causes some sort of negative emotion, or outcome for the people that are receiving the evil. They are nothing more than words, generalizing the idea of right and wrong. The thing is, that benefits are also different in other peoples eyes, what is evil for some, is good for others. What is good for some, is evil for others. Again.. they are just words generalizing the idea of right and wrong.

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 01:52 PM CT (US)     34 / 90       
So you deny the existence of good and evil?
You deny that it's bad for you to go and cut some kid's throat for no reason, since it could be perceived as good by some raving phycopath?
Taking your argument to the extreme, we should do away with the law, and say:
"Just do whatever you want, it'll appear good to someone right?"
Is that correct?

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach

[This message has been edited by Eaglehaslanded (edited 09-14-2008 @ 01:53 PM).]

Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:04 PM CT (US)     35 / 90       
I don't know where you got that from..
So you deny the existence of good and evil
Good and evil... ARE PERCEPTION!!!


I have my idea on good and evil, as do you. We have a generalized idea of good and evil. But no, I don't believe in an anarchy, and I never implied that.


"Just do whatever you want, it'll appear good to someone right?"


No. We need organization, we need laws from keeping other peoples perception of good, that are actually evil.. in line. Slitting someones throat, I perceive that as evil, as does the government, which is why there is a law against it.

And you explain to me how Good and evil aren't perception, before you judge my idea, and judge me. Other than just say things, have something to back up why you said it.

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:08 PM CT (US)     36 / 90       
Ok, so it's a perception, then you couldn't accuse an act of being evil, since that would be your personal perception. Pardon me for linking "something which exists only in one person's mind" with "something which doesn't actually exist". Like this ethereal flying chair I can perceive floating though my ceiling. Naturally, although I'm the only person who perceives it, it must be there right?

Let me put it another way. If I were to say:
That flower is orange.
Someone could say:
That flower isn't orange, it's just your perception.

Even though every person with normal sight and a sane mind would class the flower as orange, aren't I allowed to say "that flower is orange"?

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach

[This message has been edited by Eaglehaslanded (edited 09-14-2008 @ 02:14 PM).]

Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:15 PM CT (US)     37 / 90       
Like you said, your the only person that perceives it. And perception is a view on something, just seeing a chair out of nowhere, doesn't mean you perceive it, it means you see it. How can you have a view about the chair, just because it floating?

And I can accuse you of being bad, its my perception, and as I stated earlier, we have a generalized idea of whats good or bad, whether its bad enough for you to receive consequence, is not my choice, its whether it fits with the generalized idea of evil.

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:18 PM CT (US)     38 / 90       
just seeing a chair out of nowhere, doesn't mean you perceive it, it means you see it
So sight isn't perception any more? I must go out and buy an undated dictionary.
How can you have a view about the chair, just because it floating?
Like so:
"That chair is floating. That is unusual."

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach

[This message has been edited by Eaglehaslanded (edited 09-14-2008 @ 02:18 PM).]

Cknchaos
Designer Extraordinaire
posted 09-14-08 02:28 PM CT (US)     39 / 90       
Good is what I like, and evil is what I hate
What's worked for humanity since time immemorial works for me.

Tsunami's most notorious designer
Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:29 PM CT (US)     40 / 90       
Well, sight is perception.. my bad.

"Even though every person with normal sight and a sane mind would class the flower as orange, aren't I allowed to say "that flower is orange"?"

Duh!

You're linking this to the good and evil thing, and I already said, GOOD AND EVIL ARE A GENERALIZED IDEA OF WHATS RIGHT AND WRONG!

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:31 PM CT (US)     41 / 90       
Yes, good is equivalent to right
Yes, evil is equivalent to wrong
You seem to claim that one good and evil are mere perceptions whereas right and wrong are concrete ideas.

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach
Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:34 PM CT (US)     42 / 90       
I see what your saying now.

What I'm saying..

Good and evil are perception.
Right and wrong are perception.

What decides right and wrong... Your general idea of whats good or evil. What decides good or evil, your perception of right and wrong.

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore

[This message has been edited by Ultima_Shadow_K9 (edited 09-14-2008 @ 02:35 PM).]

Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:36 PM CT (US)     43 / 90       
Ok,
What I'm saying is: how can we judge someone based on our individual perceptions? How can we punish someone for doing something which only seems right to us?
How can we draw the line if all we have are person specific general ideas?

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach

[This message has been edited by Eaglehaslanded (edited 09-14-2008 @ 02:37 PM).]

Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:40 PM CT (US)     44 / 90       
Like I said, We've devolved a general idea of whats right and wrong that we go by.

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:42 PM CT (US)     45 / 90       
A sort of general consensus then?
And that consensus would change depending on what our culture is, what we have been taught and shown by previous generations. Not a bad theory now we've ironed out the misunderstandings.

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach
Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:45 PM CT (US)     46 / 90       

Thanks

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore
Cknchaos
Designer Extraordinaire
posted 09-14-08 02:49 PM CT (US)     47 / 90       
So we're right where we started then. That's great.

Tsunami's most notorious designer
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:50 PM CT (US)     48 / 90       
Thank you for your helpful input there, Cknchaos .

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach
Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:56 PM CT (US)     49 / 90       
"So we're right where we started then. That's great."




Indeed... thanks for expanding it rather than just stating the obvious :| and were not back at the beginning, we've advanced, at least I have.

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore
Cknchaos
Designer Extraordinaire
posted 09-14-08 02:58 PM CT (US)     50 / 90       
Well, walking around in circles is still technically "moving" or "advancing", so I guess you guys would be right.

Tsunami's most notorious designer
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