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Topic Subject:Philosophy
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NeverFinished
Squire
posted 09-12-08 10:08 PM CT (US)         
Philosophy...it can depress the hell out of you........but lets talk about it...

Today's question is: What is good and evil?

Be as general as you like and go off on tangents if you must but make it interesting...don't forget insightful metaphors!

--->n i

/*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*N e v e r F i ____ s h e d*~-._.-~*~-._.-~*\

...the ESTEEMED, BEAUTIFUL AND SEXY...NF~Aro
AuthorReplies:
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 02:59 PM CT (US)     51 / 90       
Depends whether you're a vector or a scalar guy.

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach
Ultima_Shadow_K9
Squire
posted 09-14-08 03:00 PM CT (US)     52 / 90       
You can't tell me I'm going in circles, you don't know whats going on in my mind. Btw, its nice to contribute just so you know.

~Living in Heaven Scince 2006~
No longer a stupid Freshmen - Now a foolish Sophmore

[This message has been edited by Ultima_Shadow_K9 (edited 09-14-2008 @ 03:00 PM).]

Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-14-08 03:22 PM CT (US)     53 / 90       
But he sees what you wrote and if you didn't write what's on your mind then why did you write it?

I think the conversation seems to circle more around the 'what ought' instead of 'what is'? Not that I contributed much to the latter one? But I have to say that I prefer the discussion about 'what ought' in this matter.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
Eaglehaslanded
Squire
posted 09-14-08 04:14 PM CT (US)     54 / 90       
Good an evil is a question of 'what aught'. That's what it means.

.^//        Eaglehaslanded
  \  /~   
  ///      You, sir, are a wench - Scud
 '' ''     You, Sir, are a wrench - Reach
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-15-08 02:38 AM CT (US)     55 / 90       
Good an evil is a question of 'what aught'. That's what it means.
That is true, but what I was pointing out was that at least I was discussing more what good OUGHT to be and what bad OUGHT to be, not what they ARE regardless of our opinions, and it doesn't make it any easier that they are strongly affiliated with our opinions?
I think there's a sense of universality in the thought model of good and evil. That's why muslims seem to tend to think westerners should obey their dogmas and why Christians tried and sometimes still try to make other peoples conformate to their standards. Also: George W. Bush.
The same thing is when we hear of suicide bombings or genocides or whatever: we are terrified because we are astonished at the lack of OUR morals in those actions?

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)

[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 09-15-2008 @ 02:39 AM).]

DunC
Squire
(id: Evil_Cheese44221)
posted 09-15-08 12:55 PM CT (US)     56 / 90       
Given that the universe is infinite, and god is infinite....

Would you like a waffle?

"It is my Duty. My Duty, as a complete, and utter bastard."~Arnold Judas Rimmer
"The real revolution starts with learning. If you're not angry, then you're not paying attention" - Tim McIlath
"We're All The PirateBay"
~~~~Evil_Cheese44221~~~~

Mr Wednesday
Cavalier
(id: matty12345)
posted 09-15-08 04:12 PM CT (US)     57 / 90       
At the risk of sending this over the top, I will throw in a few thoughts:

Good and evil are both relative and standard. There is relative evil, like maybe how a Amish person would consider TV evil or a Saudi might consider a women wearing no veil evil. These are governed by the "norms" of the society each one lives in (the Amish community, the Middle East, etc). Guilt felt for committing these acts is often based on upbringing and culture.

Then there are evils that are universally known to be wrong. It is amazing to think that in all societies in all ages, murder has been considered evil. It has always in all cultures been considered 'good' for children to respect their parents, etc. These basic truths that all people hold to are not relative, and committing an act that goes against the conscience of all mankind must truly be considered evil. Guilt felt for these acts is true guilt.

That is my take on it.

"And Matt is a prolific lurker, watching over the forum from afar in silence, like Batman. He's the president TC needs, and possibly also the one it deserves." - trebuchet king

[This message has been edited by Matt LiVecchi (edited 09-15-2008 @ 04:14 PM).]

Hailstorm65
Squire
posted 09-15-08 05:44 PM CT (US)     58 / 90       
Good and Evil are perspective only, nothing more and nothing less.

Senior Member

Know god, No fear
No god, Know fear
four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 09-16-08 03:02 AM CT (US)     59 / 90       
Then there are evils that are universally known to be wrong. It is amazing to think that in all societies in all ages, murder has been considered evil. It has always in all cultures been considered 'good' for children to respect their parents, etc. These basic truths that all people hold to are not relative, and committing an act that goes against the conscience of all mankind must truly be considered evil. Guilt felt for these acts is true guilt.
That's probably because some social version of natural selection. A society where murderers are respected and the more you kill the higher your standing is...well, I can't really see that society thriving.

But I still think that's something different to absolute morals.
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-16-08 10:40 AM CT (US)     60 / 90       
Then there are evils that are universally known to be wrong. It is amazing to think that in all societies in all ages, murder has been considered evil. It has always in all cultures been considered 'good' for children to respect their parents, etc. These basic truths that all people hold to are not relative, and committing an act that goes against the conscience of all mankind must truly be considered evil. Guilt felt for these acts is true guilt.
That's a bold statement yet I feel compelled to accept it! The thing that's nagging me though is that even if this is how the things are you can't derive that it could be otherwise.

The fact that in all societies murder is wrong doesn't make murder still universally evil, it only shows that currently all societies deny it. And mind you, in Japan at least before the Tokugawa shogunate it was completely acceptable for a class superior to murder an inferior. It's always relative. What I long for is knowledge of a moral that exists independently.
Like in maths when you have to prove stuff it's not sufficient to make a 10 000 calculations that demonstrate it, you have to prove it universally! This is the kind of moral I'm looking for and longing for and by far I've been forced to conclude that morals only exist where human minds exist and it's emergent of humans. Though I guess that would only be possible through a god or equivalent who's planned those morals particularly for humans.

And then again, you have to define 'murder'. Is human sacrifice murder? Is death penalty murder? Is abandoning a baby murder? (This latter one also raises the question: if I mean to cause someone's death but my plan is foiled am I still guilty, by the moral, of murder?)
That's probably because some social version of natural selection. A society where murderers are respected and the more you kill the higher your standing is...well, I can't really see that society thriving.

But I still think that's something different to absolute morals.
I quite agree, my Australian friend. The reason why everyone of us is using a computer is thanks not to anarchy. Even more so to those who're using a public computer!

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)

[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 09-16-2008 @ 10:45 AM).]

Powery
Squire
posted 09-16-08 01:35 PM CT (US)     61 / 90       
There is no pure good or evil. It is naive to think that way.

You can't say that murder would be evil or absolutely wrong.

You can't deny there being any bit of righteousness in a murder of someone who has murdered ten other people.

No? What if someone kills all your family members, friends, relatives, everyone you know (not very likely but imagine) and you still don't have the right to kill this guy with your own hands?

You can send him to prison or get him a death sentence if you're in a country where it's allowed.

What if you can't prove his guilt? He gets away to live in some paradise island.

Is this righteousness?

Would righteousness happen if you sneaked into his house and killed him.

What if you torture him a little before you kill him?

Does he deserve it? Is it more right if you do that?

Or does it lift his heaven-hell -factor up? This way he doesn't go so deep to hell, as you just lifted his factor by torturing him, but he still goes to hell because his factor is low because he has murdered everyone you know.

Or does that affect his factor because you did that and there were nothing he could have done about it?

Does your factor go down if you do this?

What if you hire someone else to do this?

Your factor doesn't go down at all but the one's you hired?

Or do you this way just half your factor decresement by having the killer you hired to get the other half?

What if you forgive this murderer?

Does this make your factor go up alot?

But is it right if your your murdered friends don't get their revenge?

You would just use your friends and loved ones for your own profit by getting your factor going up by forgiving this murderer. Is it right?

Would the best solution be to just send him to prison?

Can we consider lifelong imprisonement a murder as well?

Is it then less serious murder and how much less? How much your factor has to go down in this case?

Does US President murder someone if he's unaware to pardon someone sentenced to death who is actually innocent. He would have the power to save that innocent's life. Does it make him guilty?

Or does he just participate a little so that the executioners take most of the fault. Or the ones who actually got the sentenced into the situation?

Does these guys deserve to die then?

Or just wait until they get old and die and go to hell?

Righteousness happened?

Should they have died earlier so they wouldn't have lived any bit of happy life?

If someone deserves to die can it be done by a human or does God have to do it by making a tree to fall on him so righteousness would happen?

What if God doesn't do that? He usually doesn't, right? Do we, humans, have to take arms then?

But how can we know when someone deserves to die?

Is the condition, when someone is sentenced to death, in US law universally correct?

Or do we act as The Code of Hammurabi tells us? An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

What if someone has punctured three other people's eyes but he only has two eyes?

Does he now deserve to die as he has exceeded his eye-limit? Same thing for any other body parts.

Or does he just have to do some society service after his eyes have been taken?

Does he have a right to retain his eyes if he does some more society service?

Or does he have to serve the people whose eyes he punctured as they're the ones who suffered, not the society itself.



I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Nothing is that simple. It is naive to think it would be. I will never know the answers with my limited human mind.

So I don't even bother...

[This message has been edited by Powery (edited 09-16-2008 @ 01:36 PM).]

Murloc
Squire
posted 09-16-08 02:37 PM CT (US)     62 / 90       
aw.

That's philosophy maybe.
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-17-08 02:46 AM CT (US)     63 / 90       
So I don't even bother...
That's a pretty long post from someone who doesn't even bother
Would righteousness happen if you sneaked into his house and killed him.
I decided to pick this one to have my word on the subject: Murdering the person who's murdered everyone you love doesn't make you any better than the person you killed. If it was actual tooth for tooth, the dead would kill the ones who killed them (I refer you to Mercyful Fate's 'Buried Alive' ). Revenge on behalf of the killed does not bring the loved ones back, it doesn't really offer consolidation to emotionally healthy people as murdering is emotionally more scarring than seeing someone get killed. This I claim.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 09-17-08 03:03 AM CT (US)     64 / 90       
I decided to pick this one to have my word on the subject: Murdering the person who's murdered everyone you love doesn't make you any better than the person you killed. If it was actual tooth for tooth, the dead would kill the ones who killed them (I refer you to Mercyful Fate's 'Buried Alive' ). Revenge on behalf of the killed does not bring the loved ones back, it doesn't really offer consolidation to emotionally healthy people as murdering is emotionally more scarring than seeing someone get killed. This I claim.
There's only one justifiable reason to kill a murderer: to stop him killing someone else.
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-17-08 03:11 AM CT (US)     65 / 90       
But seriously, killing's not the right thing to do. Death penalty ain't any cheaper than life imprisonment.

This applies to all except Joker. Man that dude's crazy, he can only be stopped by killing or Batman and Batman won't live forever dudes! (Despite certain movie titles!)

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
Powery
Squire
posted 09-17-08 04:23 AM CT (US)     66 / 90       
Murdering the person who's murdered everyone you love doesn't make you any better than the person you killed.
Let's argue. He doesn't try to become a better person. He wants to get his revenge because his emotions tell him so.
Is it right if he gets his revenge?
If it was actual tooth for tooth, the dead would kill the ones who killed them
So you're saying that the ones the murderer killed are going to kill this murderer let's say 30 times because there were 30 people he killed? And how are they going to do it if they are dead?
Revenge on behalf of the killed does not bring the loved ones back, it doesn't really offer consolidation to emotionally healthy people as murdering is emotionally more scarring than seeing someone get killed. This I claim.
Human has an ability to become lusted for revenge. It's alot easier to go kill that murderer than sit home and forgive him when he lives in some sunny paradise. There's so much hatred in it. I don't think it would be hard at all to kill someone whom you feel so much hatred. He knows that his loved ones are not coming back but he can't resist his lust for revenge because he's a human. He thinks that it is wrong if this murderer gets to live happy life while he grieves for his loved ones.
And I don't think there are many who could stoutly believe that the murderer gets his judgement when he dies and then goes to hell.
There's only one justifiable reason to kill a murderer: to stop him killing someone else.
That's no more philosophy. That belongs to politics.

[This message has been edited by Powery (edited 09-17-2008 @ 04:27 AM).]

Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-17-08 06:43 AM CT (US)     67 / 90       
Let's argue. He doesn't try to become a better person. He wants to get his revenge because his emotions tell him so.
Is it right if he gets his revenge?
Well, the 'victim' wants to kill the one who did those atrocities because he thinks that person deserves death for his actions. The killer is viewed as a bad/evil person, and the one who wants to kill him views himself as a good person for making him pay, but this is an acute, irrational view strongly (even unhealthily) affected by feelings. I claim that a human never kills another human when being perfectly sane. (Sane meaning, not insane, that is, not diagnosable.) The insanity might only last for a while but one has to be at least temporarily insane (this can include 'upset' as well) to kill another person.
War is different in the way of unpersonality (a person who kills another person in a war doesn't 'meet' the one he kills).
Another way to kill someone and not have mental problems because of it is if you view the person not as a human. (E.g. world wars (including concentration camps), crusades)
So you're saying that the ones the murderer killed are going to kill this murderer let's say 30 times because there were 30 people he killed? And how are they going to do it if they are dead?
In other words: Tooth for tooth doesn't always work.

EDIT: Pedantically, the murderer should have 30 of HIS loved ones killed, which would be grossly unjustifiable, even more so because they don't necessarily have the same value to the murderer as the 30 people he murdered had for the 'victim'. I.e. humans can't be compared to each other in value and because of that tooth for tooth in the strict sense doesn't work.
Human has an ability to become lusted for revenge. It's alot easier to go kill that murderer than sit home and forgive him when he lives in some sunny paradise.
I can only agree by quoting a David Bowie song originally by Ron Davies: It ain't easy.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)

[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 09-17-2008 @ 07:01 AM).]

four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 09-17-08 07:37 AM CT (US)     68 / 90       
But seriously, killing's not the right thing to do. Death penalty ain't any cheaper than life imprisonment.
I've always been a supporter of the death penalty in principle, since some crimes deserve nothing less. The US implementation of the death penalty, now, that's something else...
Let's argue. He doesn't try to become a better person. He wants to get his revenge because his emotions tell him so.
Is it right if he gets his revenge?
I'm not sure "revenge" is either right or wrong. It's just cheap emotional gratification.
Mr Wednesday
Cavalier
(id: matty12345)
posted 09-17-08 11:35 AM CT (US)     69 / 90       
An interesting story of a friend of mine who took philosophy at school. His professor really made an impression on him by stressing there was no right and wrong and that he firmly belived this. Later that week, at a student/faculty party he noticed the same proffessor visibly upset as a guy made a move on his wife. Basically, the moral here is (no pun intended), every single person on some level has a set of morals they believe right and will be offended or think you immoral if you cross that line. Even the biggest proponent of moral relativism can't help but draw lines subconsciously.

The thing is each person has a different set of values, but the fact we all disagree hardly makes the case that there is no true morality.

"And Matt is a prolific lurker, watching over the forum from afar in silence, like Batman. He's the president TC needs, and possibly also the one it deserves." - trebuchet king
Powery
Squire
posted 09-17-08 12:31 PM CT (US)     70 / 90       
I claim that a human never kills another human when being perfectly sane. (Sane meaning, not insane, that is, not diagnosable.) The insanity might only last for a while but one has to be at least temporarily insane (this can include 'upset' as well) to kill another person.
Why wouldn't someone be insane if someone kills all of one's loved ones? Nothing comes in mind that would cause one to any greater insanity.
Strong drugs, perhaps?

We cannot scientifically say when someone is insane or sane. It is always somewhere between.
Human has an ability to become lusted for revenge. It's alot easier to go kill that murderer than sit home and forgive him when he lives in some sunny paradise.
This actually depends on a person. One must remember that each person is different. Some mafioso, used to killing, could easily kill another person if someone does such a terrible thing for him. He could still be sane. If we can even say what is being sane and where goes the line.
tooth for tooth in the strict sense doesn't work.
This is right. Whence we come to a conclusion that human cannot know when someone deserves to die. Whence we come to a question: Does human have a right to sentence someone to death?
The thing is each person has a different set of values, but the fact we all disagree hardly makes the case that there is no true morality.
There is no universal right or wrong. It's all just a creation of human mind that was naturally created when the human brains were in development, created to help mankind to get along with each other.

We would have alot worse conditions in this world if there wouldn't exist this morale in our minds.

[This message has been edited by Powery (edited 09-17-2008 @ 12:34 PM).]

morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 09-17-08 01:06 PM CT (US)     71 / 90       
There's only one justifiable reason to kill a murderer: to stop him killing someone else.
I hate to say this, but a large reson behind the death penalty is to discourage potential murderers. Set one killer as an example which noone shall forget.

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four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 09-17-08 06:51 PM CT (US)     72 / 90       
When you think about it, it's the only reason to kill somebody. I mean, what else would you do it for? To avenge the dead person? They're dead, so what do they care? No, you do it to stop other people dying.
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-18-08 04:16 AM CT (US)     73 / 90       
Set one killer as an example which noone shall forget.
Except everybody DOES forget. It doesn't set a scary example, it only demonstrates the cruelty of law enforcement. BESIDES, what better way to end this cruel life than by taking as many people as you like with you until they catch you and give you the needle (or perhaps worse, the bullet)?
I'm not sure "revenge" is either right or wrong. It's just cheap emotional gratification.
Quite accurate. Revenge has nothing to do with righteousness, just emotions. And I certainly don't believe a person who avenges the death of someone he loved by killing the one who did it can be satisfied with his life. And if you want things to get better, why make it impossible for yourself to be happy?
He could still be sane. If we can even say what is being sane and where goes the line.
If you're used to killing I don't count that as completely sane... I mean, you mightn't be dangerous or anything but I don't think a 'history of violence' (sorry about the movie title references, but that was a great movie) can leave you emotionally healthy.
This is right. Whence we come to a conclusion that human cannot know when someone deserves to die. Whence we come to a question: Does human have a right to sentence someone to death?
My favourite question in this kind of discussion. Who's to be justified as someone who can decide who deserves to die and who doesn't? I don't think one human deserves death more than another.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 09-18-08 12:56 PM CT (US)     74 / 90       
Who's to be justified as someone who can decide who deserves to die and who doesn't?
People always bring this up and it seems like the old tradition rooted in Christianity is "Only God gets to decide who lives and who dies."

But yet people will do this with property and they'll do it with freedom. No one says "Only God gets to decide who gets imprisoned" or "Only God gets to decide who gets fined." They have no problem with 12 people getting together to consciously and deliberately take those away, perhaps permanently depending on the system.

I say it's pretty easy to distinguish between people who: A) are willing to kill others just to get what they want, or B) show restraint and act reasonably.
When you think about it, it's the only reason to kill somebody. I mean, what else would you do it for?
Justice?

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
(Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 09-18-08 02:00 PM CT (US)     75 / 90       
But yet people will do this with property and they'll do it with freedom. No one says "Only God gets to decide who gets imprisoned" or "Only God gets to decide who gets fined." They have no problem with 12 people getting together to consciously and deliberately take those away, perhaps permanently depending on the system.
We weren't discussing those matters. We were talking about killing.
I say it's pretty easy to distinguish between people who
I say it's never easy to distinguish different types of people since everyone's type A, B, C, D and so on blended depending on the situation.
Justice?
What justice? How does killing a person make justice for anything?

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)

[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 09-18-2008 @ 02:03 PM).]

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