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Topic Subject:No communion for Obama voters
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Cyrus_
Banned
posted 11-14-08 00:46 AM CT (US)         
The pastor of St. Mary Catholic Church in Greenville, SC, is urging parishioners who voted for Barack Obama not to present themselves for Communion unless they go to confession first because they have cooperated with "intrinsic evil'' by voting for a candidate who supports abortion rights over a candidate who does not. The Rev. Jay Scott Newman told the Greenville News that he doesn't intend to deny anyone Communion, but made it clear that his view is that Obama voters should not present themselves without seeking penance first "lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.''
many Catholic figureheads consider anybody who voted for Obama to be going against their religious values because of his pro-abortion stance, when there's a morally-safe alternative candidate who doesn't support abortion they could vote for. But what's funny about that argument is that McCain was also pro-abortion, while also being pro-death penalty and pro-war both being equally serious issues Catholics opposed.
Many Republican voters, however, seem to believe, incorrectly, that the current Republican front-runner, Arizona Sen. John McCain, supports abortion rights, too. The misperception is interesting, considering that McCain has not attempted to keep his pro-life views a secret.
Palin was against abortion, but she wasn't the Presidential candidate. why is it, then, an "intrinsic evil" to support a candidate who supports only one out of three evils? it seems very two-faced and politicially motivated on the part of the Catholics involved

Thoughts on this?

More info
Priest urges penance for Obama voters over abortion
SC priest: No communion for Obama supporters
Priest: No Communion for Obama voters
Catholic bishops will fight Obama on abortion
Misperceptions About McCain's Abortion Stance

[This message has been edited by Cyrus_ (edited 11-14-2008 @ 00:48 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 11-14-08 03:52 AM CT (US)     1 / 33       
It probably has something to do with the Catholic church being retarded.
Dead_End
Cavalier
posted 11-14-08 04:34 AM CT (US)     2 / 33       
But then again, which religion isn't?
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 11-14-08 04:51 AM CT (US)     3 / 33       
many Catholic figureheads consider anybody who voted for Obama to be going against their religious values because of his pro-abortion stance, when there's a morally-safe alternative candidate who doesn't support abortion they could vote for. But what's funny about that argument is that McCain was also pro-abortion, while also being pro-death penalty and pro-war both being equally serious issues Catholics opposed.
Plus, 'religious values' are not too universal even inside local churches, roman catholic or not.
But then again, which religion isn't?
A lot of them, why?

There are many religions that are really, honestly pretty okay. Hindus are pretty okay if you don't touch their cows, confucianism barely limits anyone at all, Christianity is very stretchable, shamanism includes taking psychotropic substances. OH NOES PLES DON'T BELIEVE IN SPIRITS OF THE NATURE YOU MIGHT END UP RESPECTING YOUR ENVIRONMENT

As for roman catholic church, it's horribly outdated. The New Testament has a lot of kickass philosophy. (Also a hinch of misogyny, but come on, 1st century, they took it easy compared to a lot of peoples of the time.) It just needs to be updated you know.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)

[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 11-14-2008 @ 04:53 AM).]

Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 11-14-08 05:21 AM CT (US)     4 / 33       
Nothing new. They gave out leaflets with the same idea to everyone at church a few years back if they voted for... Kerry, I think. You can't really blame them. Catholics are losing ground, so anything that encourages births is going to go forward.

*resists posting a certain Monty Python song*
As for roman catholic church, it's horribly outdated
You won't be saying that when there's a nuclear apocalypse and Catholics hold society together via old grocery lists.

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
(Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
Enraged Orange
Squire
(id: RoboPaul88)
posted 11-14-08 08:07 AM CT (US)     5 / 33       
But what's funny about that argument is that McCain was also pro-abortion, while also being pro-death penalty and pro-war both being equally serious issues Catholics opposed.
McCain is certainly not "pro-abortion." He has been pretty much unwaveringly pro-life his entire time in the Senate and made it clear on the campaign trail that that was his view.

And there is a huge difference, from their point of view, between abortion and war and the death penalty. Killing an innocent person - what they believe unborn babies to be - is not the same as killing a convicted murderer. One is murder, the other is killing, but not murder. And I've never heard that Catholics are generally anti-war any more so than the average person. Surely you see a distinction between a volunteer soldier dying in battle and an innocent person being murdered...

Of course, I do not agree with their stance, but when one takes into account the fact that they believe that life begins at conception, it makes sense. Would you support a candidate who supported what you saw as the murder of thousands of innocent people? Probably not, regardless of his other views.

Now, things like denying Democratic voters communion are of course a little extreme, but you'll notice that it's only a tiny minority who go that far.
As for roman catholic church, it's horribly outdated. The New Testament has a lot of kickass philosophy. (Also a hinch of misogyny, but come on, 1st century, they took it easy compared to a lot of peoples of the time.) It just needs to be updated you know.
But what if they're right?

[This message has been edited by Enraged Orange (edited 11-14-2008 @ 08:08 AM).]

Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 11-14-08 09:57 AM CT (US)     6 / 33       
While I'm not a fan of the catholic church, I do think the depiction of 'many Catholic figureheads' taking this action is highly misleading: it's a single priest. And the case of the bishops is quite meaningless, because they don't actually have any political power anyway - it's just empty words. Over here, the catholic church's opposition to generally widely popular ideas, like female priests, gay marriage, abortion and euthanasia has led to them becoming the church with the lowest participation and support from their member base in the country. Being all reactionary may therefore be similar to shooting themselves in the foot.
But what if they're right?
Irrelevant. Are you buying shares in all possible religions just because they might be right?

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 11-14-08 10:23 AM CT (US)     7 / 33       
confucianism barely limits anyone at all,
Philosophy, not a religion. Confucianism is not a religion.

Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
Signature currently under construction. If you want to help out and provide me with the resources needed, download from the above links.
Dead_End
Cavalier
posted 11-14-08 10:52 AM CT (US)     8 / 33       
But what if they're right?
What if all those Armageddon-is-coming!-people are right?
You don't go taking no chances at all and take cover in some bunker, do you? Don't believe everything anyone tells you!
They may be right, but there is a bigger chance that they're wrong! Do you believe a psycho on the street when he tells you he'll "protect" you?

No. (At least I don't...)
Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 11-14-08 02:42 PM CT (US)     9 / 33       
What if he's Batman? Then the answer is yes.
Now, things like denying Democratic voters communion are of course a little extreme, but you'll notice that it's only a tiny minority who go that far.
Technically they're not denying communion. The rule is that you're not supposed to receive that sacrament if you've committed a serious sin without having gone through the Sacrament of Penance. And since the election was Tuesday it's not like there wouldn't have been an opportunity for that some time before Saturday/Sunday.

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
(Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 11-14-08 03:34 PM CT (US)     10 / 33       
Philosophy, not a religion. Confucianism is not a religion.
Yet it's stated as one of the major religions in China. I could say Christianity is a philosophy, not a religion, and if I sprinkled Ash-2-Life on Tolstoi and asked him, he'd agree.
But what if they're right?
Well, then I'd rather burn in hell than go to that kind of heaven. I prefer to live my current life the best I can.
What if he's Batman? Then the answer is yes.
My weak point is if someone who I think is Batman tells me something I'll do it. I always wear a WWBD t-shirt.
Technically they're not denying communion. The rule is that you're not supposed to receive that sacrament if you've committed a serious sin without having gone through the Sacrament of Penance. And since the election was Tuesday it's not like there wouldn't have been an opportunity for that some time before Saturday/Sunday.
Plus, how does a priest tell an Obama-voter from the other dude voter? (If he's not wearing a 'Yay Obama' t-shirt) It's not like they put a stamp on your hand when you vote saying who you voted.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 11-14-08 03:43 PM CT (US)     11 / 33       
Yet it's stated as one of the major religions in China
By whom?

Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
Signature currently under construction. If you want to help out and provide me with the resources needed, download from the above links.
Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 11-14-08 04:49 PM CT (US)     12 / 33       
Plus, how does a priest tell an Obama-voter from the other dude voter? (If he's not wearing a 'Yay Obama' t-shirt) It's not like they put a stamp on your hand when you vote saying who you voted.
I don't think it's really the priest that's the issue. I'm assuming God would be able to tell, and wouldn't appreciate someone taking the Eucharist with unforgiven sins.

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
(Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
Fattybryce
Squire
posted 11-14-08 04:58 PM CT (US)     13 / 33       
It should be up to the rape victim or the young teenagers with bright futures who had one bad night or even the poor solo mother who can't aford her 6 children already weather they get an abortion or not, NOT the goverments.

The Wall

coming soon
four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 11-14-08 11:08 PM CT (US)     14 / 33       
Over here, the catholic church's opposition to generally widely popular ideas, like female priests, gay marriage, abortion and euthanasia has led to them becoming the church with the lowest participation and support from their member base in the country
Well, there you go. Time is passing the Catholic Church by. Lucky they have this no condom policy or they might be gone by now.
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 11-15-08 03:41 AM CT (US)     15 / 33       
By whom?
By Wikipedia, for one. Looks like Buddhism's a religion, too. You may split hairs till the end of your days but the difference between a philosophy and a religion is not that big necessarily.

EDIT: most of those religions are pretty okay mostly.
I don't think it's really the priest that's the issue. I'm assuming God would be able to tell, and wouldn't appreciate someone taking the Eucharist with unforgiven sins.
Oh right. What if somebody didn't know Obama's stance on abortion because they didn't vote for or against abortion, but for the dude?

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)

[This message has been edited by Other White Meat (edited 11-15-2008 @ 03:43 AM).]

morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 11-15-08 04:04 AM CT (US)     16 / 33       
No, that chart represtented people who said confucianism was their religion. Actually, there are more confucianists, they just understand it isn't a religion.

And while we're looking at wiki, read. It is as much of a religion as atheism is.

Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
Signature currently under construction. If you want to help out and provide me with the resources needed, download from the above links.
Dead_End
Cavalier
posted 11-15-08 09:50 AM CT (US)     17 / 33       
I'm assuming God would be able to tell, and wouldn't appreciate someone taking the Eucharist with unforgiven sins.
Now that were talking about such a subject: What is God's stance on abortion? Everyone gets told by the church that abortion is a sin. But if it is, why did he create it?
Isn't it a sin not to take advantage of it? Maybe he created it so that we could use abortions...

And don't give me that "he gave us a free will"-shit. That's just a bad excuse.
four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 11-15-08 10:21 PM CT (US)     18 / 33       
Oh right. What if somebody didn't know Obama's stance on abortion because they didn't vote for or against abortion, but for the dude?
Hmmm...interesting subject.

In America, you can realistically choose between two parties. What happens if both of them support policies that are sins? Does the CC just tell you not to vote?
General_Zavier
Squire
posted 11-16-08 01:46 AM CT (US)     19 / 33       
Does the CC just tell you not to vote?
No, they feed you some bullcrap about the candidate who is the "lesser of two evils." Which is generally the Republican candidate for some reason.

Maybe they actually want us to all write in "The Pope."

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. ~Niels Bohr
No matter how hard you try, you cannot outwit stupid people. ~Anonymous
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Dead_End
Cavalier
posted 11-16-08 04:45 AM CT (US)     20 / 33       
Maybe they actually want us to all write in "The Pope."
It's back to the middle ages once again!
Cobra the Mediocre
Squire
(id: The_Cobra_81)
posted 11-16-08 07:00 PM CT (US)     21 / 33       
A Catholic conspiracy is secretly plotting to overthrow the government? You have a vague idea how silly that sounds, don't you?
What is God's stance on abortion?
The anti-abortion idea came from Jeremiah 1:5, I think. Bear in mind, the Catholic Church bases doctrine not just on the Bible, but on their leadership as well.
And don't give me that "he gave us a free will"
If you don't like it, I might suggest that you not be (or become) Catholic. If you don't agree with the concept of free will and its role in resisting temptation, perhaps pick a different religion, or none at all.
No, they feed you some bullcrap about the candidate who is the "lesser of two evils."
If you hadn't noticed, this basically sums up American politics.

Cobra the Mediocre
SteadilY working up to Average
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
(Age of Kings Heaven) (The Renegades)
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 11-16-08 07:15 PM CT (US)     22 / 33       
It's back to the middle ages once again!
The middle ages actually saw a decidedly limited role to the pope, especially spiritually. The power of the pope as we know it is the result of the counter-reformation and the 19th century reorientation of the papacy after the territory of the pope was limited to the Vatican (and a smaller Vatican than the present one).
During the middle ages the conciliary movement was still in existence and, if things had turned out differently, we might still have ended up with a catholic church led by a synod rather than a single person.
And don't give me that "he gave us a free will"-shit.
It's a main tenet of christianity so it's applicable in that regard, but the application of it seems flawed. If apparently free will is there to be tested, why is taking or not taking abortion not a test, also?

The main problem is, of course, that there are some religious people unwilling to accept that there are other people in the same country with different morals. Legalising abortion will not force Christians to utilise them - forbidding abortion will prevent people from taking them in a clean clinic and resort to illegal abortions at great hygienic risk.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
Dead_End
Cavalier
posted 11-17-08 01:46 AM CT (US)     23 / 33       
Bear in mind, the Catholic Church bases doctrine not just on the Bible, but on their leadership as well.
And there's the problem.. What are the ideas of the church based on?
The bible? Of which we don't know how much is actually added afterwards? Or even how much is edited and kept out of the ultimate version of the book...
The clergy? People have comments about the radical Muslim-clergy, but shouldn't they first look at the Catholic church?

That's the problem. People deciding for other people, who do nothing but follow. Not even asking questions.
Are they still used to the "wonderful" thing called Inquisition? Being killed for questioning the beliefs.
And when someone else questions the beliefs they attack him..
(Verbally and physically)
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 11-17-08 03:18 AM CT (US)     24 / 33       
It is as much of a religion as atheism is.
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism. Affirmation of the nonexistence of gods sounds an awful lot like 'belief'. Certainty about the non-existence of gods is not exactly scientific or anything and by definition, religion is:
A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.
PRETTY BROAD. You can claim any religion is rather a philosophy and you can call prayer contemplating or meditating. It's not that clear a difference.

Nobody's perfect.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 11-17-08 09:35 AM CT (US)     25 / 33       
Let's look atheism and confucianism over by the three main points in Wikipedia:
a notion of the transcendent or numinous, often, but not always, in the form of theism
IIRC, neither atheism or confusianism believes in life beyond the grave. Atheism specifically DENIES any existence of deities, and confucianism doesn't mention any either. So this point means that neither are religions.
a cultural or behavioural aspect of ritual, liturgy and organized worship, often involving a priesthood, and societal norms of morality (ethos) and virtue (arete)
Atheism completely skips this part, that is what common sense says. Confucianism fits here only if you take out the parts with worship, priesthood and rituals. So basically it leaves only norms of morality, which doesn't define a religion at all, TBH, since many pagan religions don't have moral norms, and they are clearly religions. Claiming "norms of morality" to be a religious trait is just plain stupid anyway, since that'd leave us with the thought that all atheists are immoral murderers, thieves and just bad people.
a set of myths or sacred truths held in reverence or believed by adherents
Atheism AGAIN skips this part, and Confucianism falls here only because of the "sacred truths" part. Again, this is a very broad definition. By this, we could also call nationalism and racism religions, since they are extreme beliefs which have "sacred truths", at least to the upholders.

Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
Signature currently under construction. If you want to help out and provide me with the resources needed, download from the above links.
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