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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Town's Crier » No communion for Obama voters
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Topic Subject:No communion for Obama voters
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Cyrus_
Banned
posted 11-14-08 00:46 AM CT (US)         
The pastor of St. Mary Catholic Church in Greenville, SC, is urging parishioners who voted for Barack Obama not to present themselves for Communion unless they go to confession first because they have cooperated with "intrinsic evil'' by voting for a candidate who supports abortion rights over a candidate who does not. The Rev. Jay Scott Newman told the Greenville News that he doesn't intend to deny anyone Communion, but made it clear that his view is that Obama voters should not present themselves without seeking penance first "lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.''
many Catholic figureheads consider anybody who voted for Obama to be going against their religious values because of his pro-abortion stance, when there's a morally-safe alternative candidate who doesn't support abortion they could vote for. But what's funny about that argument is that McCain was also pro-abortion, while also being pro-death penalty and pro-war both being equally serious issues Catholics opposed.
Many Republican voters, however, seem to believe, incorrectly, that the current Republican front-runner, Arizona Sen. John McCain, supports abortion rights, too. The misperception is interesting, considering that McCain has not attempted to keep his pro-life views a secret.
Palin was against abortion, but she wasn't the Presidential candidate. why is it, then, an "intrinsic evil" to support a candidate who supports only one out of three evils? it seems very two-faced and politicially motivated on the part of the Catholics involved

Thoughts on this?

More info
Priest urges penance for Obama voters over abortion
SC priest: No communion for Obama supporters
Priest: No Communion for Obama voters
Catholic bishops will fight Obama on abortion
Misperceptions About McCain's Abortion Stance

[This message has been edited by Cyrus_ (edited 11-14-2008 @ 00:48 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Deathmatch
Squire
(id: Darkmaster)
posted 11-17-08 11:26 AM CT (US)     26 / 33       
Debate over semantics is fruitless.

-1
nav
Squire
(id: nav_2004)
posted 11-17-08 07:22 PM CT (US)     27 / 33       
I really tend to dislike threads like this because they always become Catholic-bashing very quickly. Let's please keep this respectful of other views or else may Aro close this mercilessly.

Now, to the issue at hand. First of all I would like to point out that the Catholic Church in the United States sadly suffers from a divide. A very outspoken group loudly supports the view shown by Cyrus_ -- namely abortion is the one and only thing that matters in US politics. However, there is also a very large group that feels that no matter what, as a Catholic it is impossible to be a one-issue voter. The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is wrong and an intrinsic evil. The divide has arisen because some people, religious leaders and lay people alike, hold the view that intrinsic evils must trump all other issues, while others believe it to be wrong to ignore everything else. However, the Church also teaches that as one world-wide community, we are big enough to encompass more than one perspective. My point is, it's not correct to write off the entire Catholic Church in the US as holding the more extreme idea that voting Democrat is a mortal sin.
In America, you can realistically choose between two parties. What happens if both of them support policies that are sins? Does the CC just tell you not to vote?
The answer to this question is not even communicated well within the Church, much less outside of it. As a Catholic in the US, you are politically homeless. Neither major political party holds a platform that supports your beliefs, and both only line up a little bit at best. The Republican party has campaigned on a platform of anti-abortion and anti-euthanasia, two stances in line with the teaching of the Church. However, the Republicans have been notably out of line in several big issues: immigration policy (illegal immigrants are still people too), large neglect of the poor (the poor need protection of some kind), preemptive war, and the death penalty (which is about revenge). The Democrats campaign with a more noticeable intention of protecting the poor, taking care of the planet and the environment, and being more interested in diplomacy than shooting. However, the Democrats support abortion (which is killing), tend to be rather anti-religious, and as a general rule favor accomplishing things at a high level of government (the Church teaches that problems should be resolved at local levels if at all possible). As you can easily see from just my incomplete list of examples, neither party really supports the ideas of the Catholic Church.

So what does a Catholic Christian in the US do at election time? No one really has the answer. The solution in the past has been to try to pick the candidate with the closest platform to the teachings of the Church, but that really isn't easy to do (they're both way off). The Church does not say to refrain from voting, but it does encourage all voters to look carefully, become educated, and pray before voting. Even then, it will likely be a difficult decision and one with no good answer. The best comment I heard about this issue this year was from a nun who said that Catholics should probably say an Act of Contrition (prayer of reconciliation) on their way out of the voting booth, no matter who they vote for.



Looks like nav wrote a book again with this post.



(This space intentionally left blank.)
four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 11-18-08 00:58 AM CT (US)     28 / 33       
I really tend to dislike threads like this because they always become Catholic-bashing very quickly. Let's please keep this respectful of other views or else may Aro close this mercilessly.
The Catholic religion has had its triumphs, and produced many great humanitarians and thinkers. However, the church is very out of date and frankly I think many of its policies are repugnant. Papal infallibility, for example. How can a man be perfect? And their stance against condoms is virtually an AIDS enabling policy in this day and age.

In Australia, Catholicism was very detached from the rest of society, with Catholics virtually building their own enclosed communities with no access from outsiders. But since Australia became more culturally diverse in the 70s and 80s, Catholics began to integrate more. In the past, Catholics and Protestants didn't have anything to do with each other, but these days they're thick as thieves. I think that's a good sign.
Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 11-18-08 07:28 AM CT (US)     29 / 33       
Atheism specifically DENIES any existence of deities, and confucianism doesn't mention any either. So this point means that neither are religions.
I think religion is more about a cultural thing, like Christianity was never really about some dude sitting on a cloud watching our doings, it was about the cultural behaviour. In a way you could say our religion is popular culture. It's about belonging. And nothing denies a philosophy from being a cultural thing that can make us belong. But I'll give you that everything that includes cultural norms or anything is not automatically 'religious'. But if a proportion of Chinese dudes and chicks consider taoism or confucianism as their religion, then it is their religion because they have religious experiences about it.
A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law.
Confucius's sayings have often been regarded as law and he made a load of moral claims about stuff you should or should not do. It's not really dogmatic so that's not very religionish, but it's very close and has become more so.

Let's compare Jesus and Confucius. Both were dudes in some place where they made a lot of claims about moral and stuff. Jesus didn't necessarily think that 500 --or 2000-- years later we should kill people if they don't submit to his teachings. Jesus gave a lot of advice what we should do but so did Socrates and nobody founded a religion for him? Whereas: Confucius was a dude not much unlike Jesus who had a philosophy and if 2000 years later somebody considers his teachings as law and religion, Confucius can't do much about it can he. It doesn't matter if it's originally just a philosophy of life, it might form into a religion.

I do agree that Confucianism maybe should be considered as a philosophy rather than a religion, but what can I or you do? I also think Christianity should be considered as a philosophy and as I said, there are some dudes and probably chicks who'd agree with me, for example undead Tolstoy.

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
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morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 11-18-08 07:59 AM CT (US)     30 / 33       
I also think Christianity should be considered as a philosophy
Unless yo're christian, I don't think you have the right to do that.

Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
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Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 11-18-08 03:24 PM CT (US)     31 / 33       
Unless yo're christian, I don't think you have the right to do that.
Then how come you stated opinions about Confucianism? It's someone's religion and you made quite clear you'd prefer if everyone saw it as philosophy rather than religion. I want to state that I'd prefer if everyone saw Christianity as more of a philosophy than a religion and Jesus said some super cool stuff and he's definitely underrated in the sense that I see him. Everyone's just into the 4th-5th century dogmatic incarnation and make judgements based on that.

I'm sorry I'm so strenuous in this issue! I tend to repeat myself if I have the feeling I'm not understood and with my communicative skills (or lack thereof) I'm just inducing misunderstanding and thus repetitive debate! Sorry everyone!

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
morgoth bauglir
Squire
posted 11-18-08 03:37 PM CT (US)     32 / 33       
It comes down to majority. Majority of Christians think of Christianity as a religion, correct me if I'm mistaken. A majority of confucianists consider confucianism as a philosophy. It is their right, and not yours, to define things important to them. I am merely echoing their words here.

Also, whatever were the intentions of Jesus Christ, I think we can safely agree, his teachings have become a religion. This is NOT the case with Kung-fu-tzu and his writings. They haven't been interpreted so.

Morgoth Bauglir/Quaazi - BORINGMETAL HEADTWAT
Huidin's Belief - The Siege (4.4) - 2475 - Birth Of The Uruk-Hai (4.1) (Best Sound of 2008)
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Evil Tailor
Squire
(id: Other White Meat)
posted 11-19-08 01:55 AM CT (US)     33 / 33       
Ok I haven't met any Confucians so no Confucian has ever told me whether they consider it more a philosophy or a religion. But if it's culturally prominent and it has claims about morality or whatever (and includes stuff like customs and all that) I think it falls nothing short of a religion, but well, if you say so.

So, Obama. Communion or not? Also, this just in: racists apparently unhappy with Obama as president? How come?

"While I'm profaning I might as well do the whole f*cking thing."
-- Christopher Hitchens
http://soundcloud.com/adult-entertainment - Intriguing music! Made by me! (It's excellent!)
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