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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Town's Crier » The Politics Thread (Formerly: MURICA 2016)
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Topic Subject:The Politics Thread (Formerly: MURICA 2016)
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Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-18-16 08:35 PM CT (US)         
I'm grumpy. I want to relax and have fun in the SS and occasionally be silly and post lots of comics about talking flag-patterned balls. But we can't go twenty-five posts without something about the looming shitstorm catastrophe between the embodiment of political corruption and the embodiment of negative American stereotypes.

So... let's talk politics here, as civilly as required by the CoC. And leave our poor balls alone.

Oh, yeah... #FeeltheJohnson. FEEEEEEL IIIIIT. It's the only ticket in all fifty states without any rape apologism. Also, look at the lovely Marxist artwork in the Graduate Student Association office.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Moff Yittreas (edited 10-19-2016 @ 07:29 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-11-18 02:00 PM CT (US)     2451 / 2505       
Honestly, I thought it was pretty lolworthy.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
ax_man1
Squire
posted 10-11-18 08:14 PM CT (US)     2452 / 2505       
I wasn't aware the federal government is a feudal society and that we are all serfs.

ax_man1

Owner of a post 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500
Not all are in the same thread, but 4 of them are
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-11-18 10:28 PM CT (US)     2453 / 2505       
'Cause you need to wake up, sheeple!

I just thought it was kinda funny, though. Not everything I post with a libertarian/conservative bent necessarily means I agree with it. Sometimes I want to discuss, sometimes I want to point and laugh. I'm not a full-on AnCap... but I do think they make more sense than AnComs. That's all.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 10-12-18 02:29 AM CT (US)     2454 / 2505       
I'm guessing that the author of that statement was born in a public hospital, uses roads, visits national parks, reports crimes to the police, and hasn't been murdered

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-12-18 09:25 AM CT (US)     2455 / 2505       
Still waiting for something more specific than "various and sundry liberalisms" for my crimes against conservatism.

Aside from being anti-Nazi. Since, that's just kinda part of being an American. And a human being.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 10-12-2018 @ 09:28 AM).]

Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-12-18 12:06 PM CT (US)     2456 / 2505       
I'm starting to wonder whether ColdCanuck holds his political positions so as to fit into Team Conservative or identifies with Team Conservative due to his political positions...

[This message has been edited by Sinochud (edited 10-12-2018 @ 12:06 PM).]

Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-12-18 02:48 PM CT (US)     2457 / 2505       
Popey, please close at 2500 (or whatever post beyond that it gets to by the time you login).

We'll make another. I call this new series... Vote Vote.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 10-13-18 06:50 AM CT (US)     2458 / 2505       
The only reason I keep this thread open is that it contains the arguments to one thread...

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 10-13-18 09:21 AM CT (US)     2459 / 2505       
You know, as someone who spends my time studying another country an ocean away, I sometimes worry if perhaps not enough people are doing this. Being legitimately interested in what countries outside of your own are like, I mean. You guys and I regularly talk, we're people from different countries, so we're frequently exposed to cultural differences. Which not only improves our knowledge bit by bit, but also piques our curiosity, makes us more willing to go out and look for an answer rather than just form one in our heads based on assumptions. I feel that a rather large majority of people, however, are not like that. They stick to their own bubbles, live from day to day, facing problems in their own sphere and having long given up on concerning themselves with things that happen outside of it. As such, they remain in ignorance.

You might think, "But so what? Does an average American really need to know about a tiny piece of earth between Great Britain and Germany, Sipia? How would that knowledge improve their lives by even an iota?" And fair enough, it's fine that not everyone is equally interested in such things, or that they might not have the time or energy to go out and research random countries they have no relation to. It's not like I know everything about everywhere either.

But recently, I stumbled upon something that got me concerned. Here's a post on the Dutch subreddit by someone who attended a seminar led by Pete Hoekstra, the US ambassador to the Netherlands under the Trump administration. An interesting topic to read for someone with my field of study, of course. The general message I'm getting from this is that trade relations are going strong and they'll probably get even better in the future, hooray! But I was also interested in Hoekstra's commentary on how Dutch politics work compared to the US, which seems to boil down to "Whatever works for you, but we do things our way."

At first you might think that Hoekstra knows what he's talking about. He's an American politician, and he's a Dutch immigrant as his last name indicates, so he should be a good pick for ambassador, right? He seemed diplomatic enough in this seminar. However, the Reddit post also mentions some controversial statements Hoekstra made in the past, which he clearly did not want to talk about. The OP's own commentary (in Dutch) adds that Hoekstra is only known in the Netherlands because of those statements. It got me interested in finding out more about these statements and how we (the Dutch) perceived them.

Luckily, I didn't have to look far; Dutch satirist Arjen Lubach, whom you might remember from his "America First, Netherlands Second" and "Nonsensical Rifle Addiction" skits (the former of which Hoekstra's apparently seen himself if the Reddit post is any indication), did a piece on the subject back in January. (Turn on subtitles.) Lubach notes that Hoekstra's a bit of a dishonest politician, but other than that he merely suggests that Hoekstra was just confused by portrayals of the Netherlands in Dutch media.

I think Lubach's almost there, but he stops short of a proper conclusion-- he probably didn't want to go too far in accusing Hoekstra. What happened, if you ask me, is that Hoekstra knew perfectly well that he was talking out of his ass, but he also knew that he could get away with making blatantly false statements about the Netherlands easily enough. In America, at least. Because, as Lubach notes, most Americans must have a rather crappy understanding of the Netherlands and its culture if the way we're portrayed in American media is any indication-- let alone that they know about the current political climate here. Would they know right away that Hoekstra's talking nonsense when he says we're burning people?

Which brings me to my point; Disingenuous politicians will make greedy use of people's ignorance of what goes on outside of their bubble to feed on their fears. It doesn't matter that what they're saying is flagrantly untrue, and that the foreigners they're describing will call them out on it; the people whom they're addressing will buy the argument, and that's all that matters.

At least, that's how it works in America. In the seminar the Reddit user attended, Hoekstra comments about his statements: "Your media taught me a lot about this in the first week here, Iíve improved on this to be a more effective ambassador since." What I think he means is, he's learned that in the Netherlands, idiotic and blatantly false statements will not just be forgotten under another avalanche of trivial news in a matter of days. It sticks around for longer here, and that's why he's so frustrated that we're still accosting him about what he said way back then. He didn't realize that it doesn't work like that here.

I see that in discussions between Americans about domestic policy sometimes. One of them might say, "Look at Europe. Look at what happened there." As if gesturing to some burning structure in the distance, a war-torn ruin to serve as a warning for those who might walk in our footsteps. Bullshit, of course; We're fine, generally speaking. But these arguments work because a lot of Americans don't seem to know nearly as much about the outside world as vice-versa.

And it's not that I'm trying to pat myself on the back for doing so much better than those stoopid Americans, I've got better to do. What I think is that if we're to get out of this "fake news" rut that populism's put us in, where truth is subjective and anyone can say anything to support their argument regardless of the facts, then there needs to be an initiative to properly educate people about the world. Not just children who are already pressured to learn about so many different things, but also adults who don't ever get out of their bubble, who only learn about things through the Facebook grapevine. Because it's next to impossible to tell the alternative facts from the real ones if you have little to no base knowledge to work with. It happens here too, I've seen plenty of people fall in line with populist rhetoric because of some sketchy anecdote that's making the rounds on social media, feeding into their confirmation bias. Teaching critical thinking is important, but the bread and butter of that thinking is general knowledge about what the world is like beyond your doorstep.

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-13-18 10:34 AM CT (US)     2460 / 2505       
The only reason I keep this thread open is that it contains the arguments to one thread...
And so it shall remain. One series of threads. A political Splash Splash. Hence Vote Vote.

Sorry, was just a little bit of levity in our generally dreary slog through a world gone mad.
Because, as Lubach notes, most Americans must have a rather crappy understanding of the Netherlands and its culture if the way we're portrayed in American media is any indication
No lie here.
Would they know right away that Hoekstra's talking nonsense when he says we're burning people?
He say what now O_O
Which brings me to my point; Disingenuous politicians will make greedy use of people's ignorance of what goes on outside of their bubble to feed on their fears. It doesn't matter that what they're saying is flagrantly untrue, and that the foreigners they're describing will call them out on it; the people whom they're addressing will buy the argument, and that's all that matters.
Oh my God, yes. On the flip side of this, I've had people ask me, "So, do you Americans really..." (get machine guns at Walmart, want to invade everywhere, hang Muslims from trees, think Obama was born in Kenya...)
At least, that's how it works in America
No, it's a bit more common than that. See above.
What I think is that if we're to get out of this "fake news" rut that populism's put us in, where truth is subjective and anyone can say anything to support their argument regardless of the facts, then there needs to be an initiative to properly educate people about the world. Not just children who are already pressured to learn about so many different things, but also adults who don't ever get out of their bubble, who only learn about things through the Facebook grapevine. Because it's next to impossible to tell the alternative facts from the real ones if you have little to no base knowledge to work with. It happens here too, I've seen plenty of people fall in line with populist rhetoric because of some sketchy anecdote that's making the rounds on social media, feeding into their confirmation bias. Teaching critical thinking is important, but the bread and butter of that thinking is general knowledge about what the world is like beyond your doorstep.
Absolutely. That's why I actually like hearing you guys talk about local stuff; it's so eye-opening. Damn sure won't see it on CNN, Fox, or any American outlet. The closest we get is when some fight breaks out in a parliament or diet or whatever the legislative body is in some place most Americans can't find on a map... and then it's presented with a, "Haw haw. Look at those other people; we don't do that!" Well... 150 years ago a man was nearly beaten to death on the Senate floor with a cane, so... <_<

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 10-13-18 11:05 AM CT (US)     2461 / 2505       
He say what now O_O
More specifically, in the bit Lubach quotes (which is from a conference at the David Horrowitz Freedom Center in 2015), he said that Muslims have thrown Europe into chaos, and that they're burning cars and politicians in the Netherlands, and that the Netherlands has no-go zones. Statements which were produced directly from his rectum, to my knowledge. Here's a CNN video on it. Note the Dutch reporter making a [visible confusion] face.

We're in good hands with Mr. Hoekstra, clearly. >_>

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-13-18 12:49 PM CT (US)     2462 / 2505       
Populists want to paint a world in crisis, as it induces people to see their ostensibly muscular leadership as necessary and desirable to protect their home from the threats that abound from all sides. Hence, the fantastical alt-right depictions of Europe as a place where civilization is collapsing under the pressure of the Muslim hordes, which you get not only from Americans but certain Europeans themselves too. Populist leaders act strong but their support base is founded on playing up people's fears.

It's pathetic really, that people come to support these people due to their insecurity, hatred and fear. Grow a backbone. A society confident in its virtues will accept immigration and social progress knowing that these things will not destroy its way of life and core values. The rejection of these things means that the society is insecure and weak.

EDIT: Erm, guess I just switched from socialist to liberal overnight. Obviously, I still haven't consolidated a real political identity.

[This message has been edited by Sinochud (edited 10-13-2018 @ 01:18 PM).]

Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 10-13-18 01:29 PM CT (US)     2463 / 2505       
I am both a socialist and a liberal

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-13-18 02:33 PM CT (US)     2464 / 2505       
Meh. Boxes are books and Star Wars action figures. You don't need to have someone else's label to define your beliefs, Chud.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 10-13-2018 @ 02:34 PM).]

ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-13-18 06:07 PM CT (US)     2465 / 2505       
Dunno, AFD is really surging in Germany, so I don't really buy the idea that Europe is business as usual. Many things are afoot.
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-13-18 07:29 PM CT (US)     2466 / 2505       
In the case of the AFD, support is highest in the regions with the lowest number of refugees. That tells me that their support comes not from the massive strain that foreigners are supposedly putting on German society but from xenophobia, plain and simple.

ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-13-18 07:50 PM CT (US)     2467 / 2505       
Yes, call them xenophobic, that worked so well in America. Bavaria votes.
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-13-18 07:58 PM CT (US)     2468 / 2505       
Am I not supposed to say the truth so as to spare their feelings? Xenophobia is a natural feeling, if an often misguided one. I'm not saying that all AFD voters are bad people, but I do believe they are making a mistake.

ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-13-18 08:15 PM CT (US)     2469 / 2505       
Yes, I have to say it because it's the truth. Come on, I can't roll my eyes enough.
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-13-18 08:24 PM CT (US)     2470 / 2505       
Why, do you suggest, do they vote for AFD?

ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-13-18 08:49 PM CT (US)     2471 / 2505       
Perhaps people want a little less than 1m Migrants in a single year? Perhaps people are interested in a political party that represents them first, before a variety of popular crusades?
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-13-18 09:13 PM CT (US)     2472 / 2505       
Yeah, putting Germans first by shutting down migrants and refugees. It's an understandable idea that German taxpayers should not bear the cost of solving foreigners' problems. But voting AFD is obviously not just about the money. It's also about keeping Germany a white and Christian country and not letting Muslims flood in and ruin everything, blowing things up, cutting people to bits and raping German women. Once again, certainly an idea I can understand why people subscribe to, but resting on what I see as the false assumption that the migrants as a whole are really all that dangerous. Also, the drive to keep German traditionally German is just primitive tribalism, which I find silly, unpleasant and potentially dangerous. And you can hardly deny that xenophobia plays a fundamental part in all this.

It's no surprise that the economically deprived parts of Germany, where people are insecure about their society, are the ones that vote AFD the most.

It all depends on your world-view. You alt-right guys are so pessimistic. And then with your us-and-them mentality. It's just depressing.

[This message has been edited by Sinochud (edited 10-14-2018 @ 01:18 AM).]

ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-13-18 09:16 PM CT (US)     2473 / 2505       
Look man, this is a positive movement. You don't have to agree, and you certainly don't need to tell us what we want and why we want it by putting words in our mouths.
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-13-18 09:25 PM CT (US)     2474 / 2505       
I see the alt-right as a blight on modern Western society so obviously I'm going to want to try to understand the motivations behind it. I don't believe that it is a positive movement and I would totally get in your way if I could, because in my world-view your world-view is the wrong world-view.

Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 10-14-18 07:21 AM CT (US)     2475 / 2505       
Look man, this is a positive movement.
In the 20th century, it was called fascism, and liberal democracies fought wars against the countries when they were no longer content with their extant borders.

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
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