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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Town's Crier » The Politics Thread (Formerly: MURICA 2016)
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Topic Subject:The Politics Thread (Formerly: MURICA 2016)
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Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-18-16 08:35 PM CT (US)         
I'm grumpy. I want to relax and have fun in the SS and occasionally be silly and post lots of comics about talking flag-patterned balls. But we can't go twenty-five posts without something about the looming shitstorm catastrophe between the embodiment of political corruption and the embodiment of negative American stereotypes.

So... let's talk politics here, as civilly as required by the CoC. And leave our poor balls alone.

Oh, yeah... #FeeltheJohnson. FEEEEEEL IIIIIT. It's the only ticket in all fifty states without any rape apologism. Also, look at the lovely Marxist artwork in the Graduate Student Association office.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Moff Yittreas (edited 10-19-2016 @ 07:29 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-14-18 02:59 PM CT (US)     2476 / 2505       
I see the alt-right as a blight on modern Western society so obviously I'm going to want to try to understand the motivations behind it. I don't believe that it is a positive movement and I would totally get in your way if I could, because in my world-view your world-view is the wrong world-view
It just sets us up for less potential compromise in the future. If you think I'm a facist, racist, Xenophobe, whatever, then what is left other than conflict? Since you regard me in those terms, it makes me wonder what kind of actions you would feel justified to prevent anyone on my side from attaining any kind of autonomy.
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-14-18 03:07 PM CT (US)     2477 / 2505       
So why do you identify as "Alt-Right"?

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-14-18 03:15 PM CT (US)     2478 / 2505       
I don't identify with disingenuous labels created by others. I'm a conservative.
Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 10-14-18 03:23 PM CT (US)     2479 / 2505       
Guys, just in general, in proceeding with this conversation, try not to waste too much time and energy hurling accusations at one another. I know this is a topic where it's very tempting to make assumptions about what people believe. Let's stick to the content of discussion without assuming another's position.

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 10-14-18 05:09 PM CT (US)     2480 / 2505       
ColdCanuck never goes into depth about his political positions or his reasons for having them. All he talks about is his cynical views of how polarised the political world is, how irreconcilable the 'other side' is to 'his side'. Yet never does he attempt to open a genuine dialogue about the content of our respective politics. Of course, with that he is just perpetuating the blight of polarisation he harps on about.

However, to me it seemed that he acknowledged that he identifies the alt-right given that he called it a 'positive movement' and that he talked in terms of 'we' when telling me that I don't have to assume what they do and don't believe and that I shouldn't put words in their mouth. If in fact he doesn't identify with them, then I invite him to enlighten us on what the differences between his beliefs and their beliefs are. Or he could challenge the whole premise that the Alt-Right is racist, xenophobic and neo-fascist.

However, he is either already resigned to the fact that arguing with his leftist adversaries (in this worldwide battle between good and evil that he seems to envision in his head) is a waste of time, or in reality he doesn't really want a dialogue. CC, with this attitude you have no right to complain about the political polarisation these days, you're part of the problem.

[This message has been edited by Sinochud (edited 10-14-2018 @ 05:09 PM).]

Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 10-14-18 06:11 PM CT (US)     2481 / 2505       
Sorry, Sipia, I'm in agreement with Chud here. This isn't something that can just be kicked down the road indefinitely. Either CC can talk about what he believes and why, or others can make assumptions based on the clues he leaves. There's no third option.

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile

[This message has been edited by Popeychops (edited 10-14-2018 @ 06:12 PM).]

ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-14-18 06:48 PM CT (US)     2482 / 2505       
Any kind of discussion on this forum quickly turns onto a pile on, and to be quite honest, I don't have the time nor the desire to go into much depth. After all, no one is going to change their mind, it's just more of an intellectual exercise for all parties. I don't have the time to go quote by quote like I used to, I've done that a ton, especially here, so it's not fair to say I never did.

That being said, keep in mind I don't show up and talk about how everyone here is _______, I just make observations that are, to be honest, pretty self evident. You are the ones throwing around words like xenophobic.
or others can make assumptions based on the clues he leaves
Also, once again, people casually just throw out these dirty little lines implying that I'm somehow xenophobic. I highly doubt many people are genuinely looking to have a "dialogue" when things like this are so common.

[This message has been edited by ColdCanuck (edited 10-14-2018 @ 06:54 PM).]

ColdCanuck
Squire
(id: Coldviper)
posted 10-14-18 06:51 PM CT (US)     2483 / 2505       
Also, as one piece of evidence(and I really don't intend to get into specifics of the issue by any means) take a hot button subject like abortion. One side frames it as a gross violation of human rights(Dictating what Women can do with their bodies), and the other side frames it as a gross violation of human rights (the rights of an unborn child to not be disposed of).

How can this be reconciled? It can't.
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-14-18 07:27 PM CT (US)     2484 / 2505       
What's wrong with intellectual exercises?

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 10-15-18 03:36 AM CT (US)     2485 / 2505       
How can this be reconciled? It can't.
Actually, that particular example is reconciled by acknowledging that unborn living humans have a right to life, while also acknowledging that in a medical context, life does not begin until some point during the second trimester of pregnancy.

You need to be specific if you want resolution of complex problems. Generalities will remain vague and ill-formed.

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile

[This message has been edited by Popeychops (edited 10-15-2018 @ 03:38 AM).]

Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 10-15-18 09:57 AM CT (US)     2486 / 2505       
Sorry, Sipia, I'm in agreement with Chud here. This isn't something that can just be kicked down the road indefinitely. Either CC can talk about what he believes and why, or others can make assumptions based on the clues he leaves. There's no third option.
What I'm getting at here is that I'm witnessing Chud, you, and Moff to a lesser extent all accosting CC at once. (Not intended as an accusation, just an observation.) I see it as a failure on my part as a moderator that I stood by and let things like that happen in the past-- It taught me that I should step in sooner to try and reel everyone in. So now I'm doing just that.

And that's separate from my opinion on the actual content of the discussion. I just want you all to be mindful of how you treat one another, and I need to be impartial in that regard. You may debate with and question CC; he's responsible for his own opinions and words. But nobody deserves to feel like they're being interrogated or ganged up on here.

Long and short of it is, my only real duty is to make sure everybody plays nice. It shouldn't be that hard given the scope of this place, so it's about time I actually tried doing something in that regard.

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-15-18 10:27 AM CT (US)     2487 / 2505       
Don't gangbang people we disagree with.

And I'm not trying to. But after him throwing around charges of people believing this and that or being infiltrators of movements or whatever, I want to know what he thinks. I'm curious of how him and I differ, as we're two of three significantly-contributing, self-identified conservatives. I really do want to have to open discussion of our views, common ground between ostensible adversaries and differences between ostensible allies.

Sometimes I know I get a little hot and bothered, but that's usually in reaction to sweeping generalizations or outright guilt by association things. And I know I'm guilty of doing the same dirty tricks. But really, I just want to talk.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 10-15-2018 @ 10:29 AM).]

ax_man1
Squire
posted 10-16-18 01:35 AM CT (US)     2488 / 2505       
Also, once again, people casually just throw out these dirty little lines implying that I'm somehow xenophobic.
You do nothing to dissuade these views and then post in ways that only reinforces them.

I do think though that you lack nuance. Members of my family are also against taking in refugees for similar reasons to yours. A common theme is that "they'll steal jobs" or "steal welfare", despite that they have little access to welfare at best (not having a SSN makes things tricky). Immigrants also tend to apply for jobs that Americans (in my case) tend to not vie for, such as fieldwork, manual labor, and other low/unskilled work. Removing refugees or immigrants or illegals or what have you as a labor source only exacerbates the already existing labor shortage for those areas.

There are economic consequences for barring or tightly restricting immigration. For example, when I lived in GA several years ago, a law was passed in Alabama and Georgia that mandated law enforcement be more strict about arresting illegal immigrants and deporting them. The law was quietly repealed a few months later because those fields I mentioned above were seeing critical labor shortages, because Americans didn't want to take those jobs. It was the same thing when I lived in California: driving by the fields there, it was all Mexicans and not-white people working in them. And this isn't just in America either; an article I read a couple weeks ago about how farmers in England have trouble finding field laborers to pick crops, where sometimes there isn't a single British person in the fields. I had to remind myself a couple times while reading it that this wasn't in America because the issues described were so similar to what's happening here.
Also, as one piece of evidence(and I really don't intend to get into specifics of the issue by any means) take a hot button subject like abortion.
That's a fair position, but it doesn't mean abortion can't be discussed in a reasonable manner by people who ideologically disagree with each other.

ax_man1

Owner of a post 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500
Not all are in the same thread, but 4 of them are

[This message has been edited by ax_man1 (edited 10-16-2018 @ 01:58 AM).]

Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-16-18 11:11 AM CT (US)     2489 / 2505       

Womp womp.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 10-16-18 02:34 PM CT (US)     2490 / 2505       
'Schland!

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-16-18 03:31 PM CT (US)     2491 / 2505       
So... we stand at 2491 posts in the politics thread. The election has come and gone. And I'm tired of seeing the grad student association office's horrible propaganda posters (seriously; I'm putting more effort into some cover pictures than they did. More fists than... well... never mind). >_>

So my thinking was we start a new one at 2500... kind of start a running trend. Political Splash Splash... Vote Vote.

Talked to Popey about it a bit and we're thinking of also letting thread selection go like SS. We'll pick up the discussion where we left it off. But it would only be fair to open it to all of you, provided we didn't get too inflammatory in the OP. Remember, we all have different opinions and while debate is encouraged, outright harassment isn't. So, whoever comes up with the best Vote Vote OP wins and becomes Politics Thread II (just... don't name it Electric Boogaloo, or Electoral Boogaloo, or any other variation on that. Every second thread in a series gets that. Please. I'm begging).

And then if you didn't win your SS theme... you can always try the VV theme. <_<

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 10-16-18 03:40 PM CT (US)     2492 / 2505       
A common theme is that "they'll steal jobs" or "steal welfare"
You know, I never really understood how the logic behind these accusations works. Even if you put aside what you mentioned about them taking jobs which the natural-born Americans don't want anyway, or the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation where immigrants will get called out for both having a job and not having a job... Who even came up with the concept of "stealing" jobs? That implies that one is somehow entitled to that job first. Why? Because of where one is born? Nobody deserves to be treated as second- or third-class on those grounds.

Plus, offering an equal or better service against a more lucrative price is literally how capitalism works. If you want to blame anyone for "your" job being taken by an immigrant, blame the employer for abusing their strengthened negotiating position and dropping you like a bag of bricks to save a few big ones. Funny how that works, right? It's never the boss-man's fault, even though they call the shots. Almost as if they're deliberately redirecting the ire of the masses to a group with the lowest social standing.

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Blatant
DoFH Seraph & Director of Seraphs
(id: blatant7)
posted 10-16-18 04:49 PM CT (US)     2493 / 2505       
Talked to Popey about it a bit and we're thinking of also letting thread selection go like SS. We'll pick up the discussion where we left it off. But it would only be fair to open it to all of you, provided we didn't get too inflammatory in the OP. Remember, we all have different opinions and while debate is encouraged, outright harassment isn't. So, whoever comes up with the best Vote Vote OP wins and becomes Politics Thread II (just... don't name it Electric Boogaloo, or Electoral Boogaloo, or any other variation on that. Every second thread in a series gets that. Please. I'm begging).
I like it, it reminds me of the good old days of BfME2H having two party threads. Just that one is a lot more serious

I was also wondering what the policy was on making separate discussion threads on general political topics. For example, I was thinking about making one to discuss the pros and cons of the electoral college, which would be political in nature but not from a divisive partisan point of view.

Yes, I began my journey alone, and I ended it alone.
But that does not mean that I walked alone. ~ Brandon Sanderson
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-16-18 04:55 PM CT (US)     2494 / 2505       
Well, we used to have it divvied up by nation, but... no one wanted to talk British politics for very long.

So it all got lumped into here.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
ax_man1
Squire
posted 10-16-18 06:18 PM CT (US)     2495 / 2505       
Who even came up with the concept of "stealing" jobs?
Fear of the "other" and not wanting to interact with or live near people who don't look like them. This was also one of the causes of White Flight.

ax_man1

Owner of a post 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500
Not all are in the same thread, but 4 of them are
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-16-18 08:55 PM CT (US)     2496 / 2505       
First the Irish, then the Chinese, then the Germans... the Italians...

Almost done. <_<

Sorry, but this made me chuckle.


For those of you unaware, this is a riff on Senator Warren's repeated claims of Native American ancestry... which she even used to get scholarships in college and to pad herself against criticism, especially from the GOP. Well, turns out Dove soap is less white than she is... as it's only 99.44%.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 10-17-2018 @ 09:23 AM).]

Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-17-18 02:32 PM CT (US)     2497 / 2505       
http://daphnejordan.com/
As our next Senator, Daphne Jordan will honor our values, keep her promises and work to:
Deliver real tax relief to help hard working families
Support economic development to create more good-paying jobs
Cut Albany’s wasteful government spending and job-killing red tape
Oppose unfunded state mandates that drive up property taxes
Support our first responders and honor our veterans
Fight for a better New York State

Full of sound and fury... signifying little. No State Senator is going to curtail Albany's, "We'll pay for it tomorrow" mentality. Which means tax relief is not in the cards, and neither is she going to do anything about the already crippling unfunded mandates. Penultimate item is very Penultimo, however I may agree with the sentiment... those are basically articles of faith in Republican rhetoric. How much of it shallow talk for the cameras is another discussion

So, good luck in fighting for a better state. I'm hoping GE or whoever I do end up working for sends me to greener pastures. I hold no allegiance to this hemorrhaging zombie state.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 10-17-18 03:00 PM CT (US)     2498 / 2505       
For those of you unaware, this is a riff on Senator Warren's repeated claims of Native American ancestry... which she even used to get scholarships in college and to pad herself against criticism, especially from the GOP. Well, turns out Dove soap is less white than she is... as it's only 99.44%.
Sometimes identity politics get silly like that, yeah. (Often, in fact.) But hey, The Donald did say he'd donate a million dollars to charity if she has Native American ancestry according to a DNA test. Which, very technically, she has. So... Cough it up, Don.
Support our first responders and honor our veterans
Did you know that this is a very American thing? Over here, nobody makes such a fuss about showing respect to those who are/were in the military and such. That's considered just a job here-- people agree that it's nothing to sneeze at, but they don't make a show of praising them. It speaks of a very strong civil religion, and a lot of Americans don't seem to be aware of this.
Fight for a better New York State
As opposed to the opponent, who has pledged to fight for a mediocre, same-old New York State?

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 10-17-18 03:29 PM CT (US)     2499 / 2505       
As opposed to the opponent, who has pledged to fight for a mediocre, same-old New York State?
You don't know Imperator Andy, do you?

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Blatant
DoFH Seraph & Director of Seraphs
(id: blatant7)
posted 10-17-18 07:36 PM CT (US)     2500 / 2505       
2500. I think political issues are complicated.

Yes, I began my journey alone, and I ended it alone.
But that does not mean that I walked alone. ~ Brandon Sanderson
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