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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Town's Crier » Pope Pope I: The Religion Thread
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Topic Subject:Pope Pope I: The Religion Thread
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Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 01-18-19 08:43 PM CT (US)         
Believe it or not, I'm not actually talking about battleship thighs!

I think, within reason, we can have an honest--and civil--discussion about faith. Not about politics, or what have you... to actually discuss our beliefs and maybe answer genuine questions from people who want to know more. It might help us think about our beliefs in ways we hadn't before.

But some ground rules.
1. Please be civil. Please. This is a touchy subject.
2. Ask questions in good faith. Not, "Why do learned people subject themselves to stone age myths" or troll shit like that.
3. No holy wars. It's one thing to declare something a heresy. Another to try to launch an inquisition.
4. If you have nothing polite and constructive say, please don't say whatever's left over here.
5. All are welcome. To listen, to discuss... believer and non-believer and the just unsure.

And yes, Moff is actually fairly religious. It's a recent development, hence my very tentative approach here. And if we can't keep this a pleasant discussion, I will not hesitate to request this thread closed.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 01-18-2019 @ 08:44 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 01-21-19 03:44 PM CT (US)     26 / 57       
...I don't believe what I'm seeing. This forum has changed and not for the better.
Are you celebrating International Women's Day this year? March 8th is coming up soon! Women's rights are human rights!

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 01-21-19 03:58 PM CT (US)     27 / 57       
...Calvinism is scary. Even scarier than Hobbesism.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 01-21-19 04:20 PM CT (US)     28 / 57       
*slow clap*

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 01-22-19 11:54 AM CT (US)     29 / 57       
Calvinists believe in five basic points of faith, which they call "TULIP" as a mnemonic.
And I thought atheism was bleak.

Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 01-22-19 12:29 PM CT (US)     30 / 57       
Calvinists believe in five basic points of faith, which they call "TULIP" as a mnemonic.
Funny coincidence how Calvinism was very prominent among the tulip-obsessed Hollanders.
And I thought atheism was bleak.
Calvinists generally have no sense of humor. You know speculaas, those tasty cookies? In the low countries, these are traditionally made for the Sinterklaas feast, where they're shaped to feature pretty pictures of the patron saint. A nice display of craftsmanship, to take the effort to fashion a bit of cultural expression on something that's destined to exist only temporarily. In the Roman Catholic southern provinces, this was fine. In the Calvinist northern provinces, this was dangerous idolatry, tsk tsk tsk! And therefore they attempted to outlaw it. Keyword is "attempted", because now the tradition of creating speculaas cookies with images on them-- even outside of the Sinterklaas holiday-- is now so prominent that it's weird to have speculaas without any.

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 01-22-19 01:23 PM CT (US)     31 / 57       
And I thought atheism was bleak.
"There is nothing after" is definitely less bleak than, "Unless you win the lottery, you are damned before you start. Nothing you can do can change it. You don't even have a choice."

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 01-22-19 04:45 PM CT (US)     32 / 57       
I wouldn't want to be elected by a capricious Greco-Roman god like that

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
ax_man1
Squire
posted 02-03-19 01:17 PM CT (US)     33 / 57       
-If there is such a thing as the Devil, then only as God's alt account.
Traditionally he was God's jurist/accuser, to test people's faith--he wasn't opposed to God, that came about much later. In Job he's chumming around in Heaven and chatting with God, and offers to test Job to see if he really is faithful, and God says "Go for it". Gross simplification, but in that story, he was just doing his official duties.

I've read that 'Satan' as a term was also used to describe a great enemy (a physical human, not a supernatural entity) or a judgement on the Hebrews (e.g. them being taken into bondage in Babylon). Wish I could re-find that source, it was a fascinating read.
When it came up in conversation, another student(!) told me that I needed to go away and read my bible and that I wasn't a proper Christian.
This sounds familiar to a Catholic being told they aren't a real Christian (Southern Baptists really do not like Catholics).
And I thought atheism was bleak.
Atheism is bleak? I'm curious as to how, as I've never felt that it was. Here's the short version: Do you remember the time from before you were born? That's what I conceptualize death to be, you just cease and fade back to the nothing that existed before you were born.

It's not something that scares me. Unsettling when you first come to the realization, sure, I'll grant that, but I'd already been an atheist for years when I found that conclusion. Why it took that long to figure it out, I don't know, other than that I guess I never really thought about it beyond "When I die, that's it, I just become worm food".
"There is nothing after" is definitely less bleak than, "Unless you win the lottery, you are damned before you start. Nothing you can do can change it. You don't even have a choice."
Calvinism...not even once

ax_man1

Owner of a post 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500
Not all are in the same thread, but 4 of them are

[This message has been edited by ax_man1 (edited 02-03-2019 @ 01:27 PM).]

Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 02-03-19 06:28 PM CT (US)     34 / 57       
This sounds familiar to a Catholic being told they aren't a real Christian (Southern Baptists really do not like Catholics)
I'm aware. I'm not a huge fan, but I don't call people "not a real Christian" unless they reject the Nicene creed. It's not a perfect guide, but it's a useful one to assert whether someone is serious or not.
@Popey207 - I would like to know more!

(Actually, having lived that for the first half of my life... I do know it, but I'd love to see your thoughts and perspectives. In the other thread <_<)
Well, no wonder your eschatology was on point... You too, huh?

I actually kind of disagree with your description of Evangelicals as expecting God to bring about End Times. They're active. Fully active, and participating in ending the world. There is, after all, only a short step from expecting God to destroy the world, and believing that God has mandated you with its destruction.

An example is the particular foreign policy which Evangelicals support. It's no coincidence that they happen to be hawks. Indeed, I suspect that US conservatives are hawkish in large part to placate the Evangelical tendency in their base, and this is something we will see developing as the Republican Party shifts further right and WASPs become a larger and larger share in the party. It may well collapse completely as a party of national government and need to significantly reform, as the demographics of the country move WASPs into the minority. Consider that Conservatives of all stripes, of all countries, support the state of Israel and refuse to recognise a state of Palestine. This is not just a matter of Israel being a liberal democracy in a region of flawed democracies, but also a sop to the religious right. Evangelicals believe that a state of Israel with its capital in Jerusalem is a prerequisite of Jesus' second coming. The Trump administration's moving of the Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is no accident, it's good policy to shore up his base.

I truly despair at the apocalyptic attitudes some Evangelicals hold. The prediction of an impending end seems to result in a reluctance to construct, or to assess problems in the present. I don't know if it's just a sense of fatalism, but I've met many many people who just seem to be living for the present and preparing nothing for their future. I think that's wrong. I intend to live a full life, and die, and leave a lasting legacy of improvements to the world. I don't want to spend every moment preparing for something else.

I don't really have a structured "this is what Evangelicalism is" book written in my mind, but I do think that given a series of essay questions, I could write extensively on the subject. There's so much to unpack that's all interlinked.

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Mr Wednesday
Cavalier
(id: matty12345)
posted 02-05-19 12:34 PM CT (US)     35 / 57       
Atheism is bleak? I'm curious as to how, as I've never felt that it was. Here's the short version: Do you remember the time from before you were born? That's what I conceptualize death to be, you just cease and fade back to the nothing that existed before you were born.

It's not something that scares me. Unsettling when you first come to the realization, sure, I'll grant that, but I'd already been an atheist for years when I found that conclusion. Why it took that long to figure it out, I don't know, other than that I guess I never really thought about it beyond "When I die, that's it, I just become worm food".
Not who you asked the question, but I find it bleak because for the most part life sucks. Everyone gets hit with depression, from beggars to billionaires. The common theme is at some point in life most people express the feeling, "there has to be something more than this." Athiesm shuts the door on there ever being something better, and on the idea of having something bigger to live for than just your own happiness which you probably will struggle to maintain anyway. Even if all religion were a lie, it's certainly a comforting one.

Of course, I think the average religious person thinks of that something else as something better, and maybe athiests just see it as the fear of hell, or something. One of the alluring things about atheism is it promises to do away with made up threats hanging over your head, but it is less attractive to address the fact that it also replaces a hope in something better with well, nothing.

Faith promises you at a funeral that you will see your loved one again. That alone is huge. As someone who has lost dear people like most everyone does, I can't imagine going through it without having some sense of hope, false or otherwise.

"And Matt is a prolific lurker, watching over the forum from afar in silence, like Batman. He's the president TC needs, and possibly also the one it deserves." - trebuchet king

[This message has been edited by Mr Wednesday (edited 02-05-2019 @ 12:38 PM).]

ax_man1
Squire
posted 02-06-19 01:32 AM CT (US)     36 / 57       
Athiesm shuts the door on there ever being something better, and on the idea of having something bigger to live for than just your own happiness which you probably will struggle to maintain anyway.
I have to ask "How" again. For family-oriented people for example, they could live to provide for their children while raising and guiding them to become good people in their own right, and making their spouse happy, that's certainly bigger than themselves and goes beyond their own happiness. What I'm trying to say is, I don't see why living for something bigger than oneself must involve a divine or supernatural being. I can expand more on this if you want.
One of the alluring things about atheism is it promises to do away with made up threats hanging over your head, but it is less attractive to address the fact that it also replaces a hope in something better with well, nothing.
Not really, no. Atheism is just a lack of belief; we don't "disbelieve Hell away" anymore than a Christian disbelieves away a a pagan god, for example.

As far as the "something better" part, that's a more difficult topic. For me it's an issue of eternity. Eternity is a very, very long time. I've thought about it on and off over the years, and I've concluded that eternal life, even in an incorruptible form (as an angel, shade, whatever), would not be worth it. That and the issue of agency...do we still have agency and free will in Heaven? If the answer is No, then no, immortality is not worth it. This isn't out of a desire to "live in sin" as some fundamentalist Christians would put it, but if we have no agency in Heaven, is that really something better than what we had in life?

I had more to say about this initially, but it's late, I'm tired, and it wasn't coming together coherently, so the above is a summation of what I was trying to say.

ax_man1

Owner of a post 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500
Not all are in the same thread, but 4 of them are
oliver
Squire
posted 02-08-19 05:57 AM CT (US)     37 / 57       
I don't have anything particular to add since I'm not considering these things any longer, but summing up my position I find religion/spirituality, organised or not, to be a kind of qualified speculation that can't serve as a foundation for me. I think I am a disinterested agnostic these days. Since I have no spiritual or emotional need for an afterlife, nor to reunite with passed friends and family, I wonder what could be the point of religion at all in my life.

With that said I respect other people's need to believe, because they might not share my worldview, or be at a stage in their life when -- or be of a character to which -- one's sense of greater purpose is not clear, and annoyingly so.

EDIT: Having quickly read up about agnosticism, I want to clarify that I don't think there is an ontological impossibility as to knowing the presence or non-presence of a "God-like" creator/overseer. I just don't see any purpose in trying to find out so. So maybe I'm not an agnostic after all but a kind of disillusioned idealist. Only that it doesn't really bother me, these days.

I hope that doesn't come off as trolling, it's just my personal view.

[This message has been edited by oliver (edited 02-08-2019 @ 06:09 AM).]

Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 02-08-19 10:03 AM CT (US)     38 / 57       
Don't worry, Olly. It doesn't come across like trolling at all. And it's clearly a post worth adding!

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
John the Late
Knight
posted 02-08-19 01:04 PM CT (US)     39 / 57       
Pope now away from the Vatican
Moff ownz it temporarily
I approve of this reference.
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 02-08-19 01:08 PM CT (US)     40 / 57       
I don't get it.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 02-08-19 03:23 PM CT (US)     41 / 57       
That's because no matter how much spam you post, you'll never truly be of the TC

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 02-08-19 09:21 PM CT (US)     42 / 57       
A-a-are you saying... th-that Moffgou-san i-is a COW? O_O

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 02-09-19 05:07 AM CT (US)     43 / 57       
Moooooooo

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
ax_man1
Squire
posted 02-09-19 11:35 AM CT (US)     44 / 57       
A-a-are you saying... th-that Moffgou-san i-is a COW? O_O
Shut your face, you heifer

ax_man1

Owner of a post 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500
Not all are in the same thread, but 4 of them are
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 02-09-19 09:51 PM CT (US)     45 / 57       
Is okay. I forgive you all... you know not what you do. >_>



And speaking of our Lord and Savior... <_<

I really want to thank folks for being honest, yet civil.
But if one believes that evil is not just an absence of good, but a separate concept, then there must be a source for that too, and it can't be God as well, since he's already the 'good guy'.
God allows free choice. You can choose to be evil. According to Genesis (which I take as quite metaphorical :p), Adam and Eve chose to defy the one rule put forth by God. We have free choice. We are not robots.

And that includes the freedom to choose evil, and all of its brief perks and horrendous penalties.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 02-12-2019 @ 08:49 AM).]

Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 02-22-19 08:23 AM CT (US)     46 / 57       
Now... let me introduce you all to my religion...

https://www.rt.com/russia/452142-anime-orthodox-icons/


New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 02-22-19 09:13 AM CT (US)     47 / 57       

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 02-22-19 09:57 AM CT (US)     48 / 57       
Foodies

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 02-22-19 10:09 AM CT (US)     49 / 57       
17 And Gordon did look upon the plate at the pass,
With heavy heart he cried,
18 "Thou asses of the field, thou donuts
I give unto thee simple direction
But thou cannot.
19 "Gather unto me, and behold
For where art the sauce of lamb?
If any of you should have with thee
the sauce of lab, render it hence."
20 But his disciples knew not where the sauce of lamb was
For they were as donuts and asses of the field.
21 And with a mighty cry, Gordon seized the saucier
And lo, it began to overflow the lamb sauce
And disciples and customers beheld and were astonished.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 02-22-2019 @ 10:12 AM).]

Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 02-26-19 09:16 PM CT (US)     50 / 57       
If you have good food and good company where is the need for God?

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