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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » General and Strategy Discussion » Malay Strategic Strengths
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Topic Subject:Malay Strategic Strengths
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-16-18 09:57 AM CT (US)         
First off, I'd like to complement the Malay as a civ because they can do so many things.

They aren't a knight civ, but are aimed mainly at elephants. I like the campaign for these guys, not to mention how cool Gaja Madah is.


What's good about this civ? I'll make a list.

- Harbors fire arrows
- Harbors cost only wood
- Karambit Warriors create fast
- Battle Elephants resemble Cataphracts
- Full Archer line
- Bombard Cannons and BB Towers
- Keeps
- Great Navy
- Monks can convert siege weapons
- Onagers and Heavy Scorpions make good siege line
- Trebuchets have siege engineers
- Sword line costs no gold
- Have Halberdiers
- Cavaliers among the best because of supporting units
- Can make a good wonder victory on custom maps
- Battle Elephants cost 50 gold

With all of this, they aren't great at rush, but I'd support them in Custom maps, late-game setups, or even Post-Imperial Starts. Because they mostly rely on their navy, it can be troublesome to work out victory on a land-only map. I like to use Harbors on river maps or continental, then make castles and towers far behind to break any forces that come through. A real game is with 100 villagers, and 100 military, 10 trebuchets. Nothing less. Anything that begins like 3 is a slugfest and a slaughter. Give your thoughts on Malay strategy, and also, remember your Karambit Warriors aren't strong vs siege, but can double up with onagers to cream enemy knights on split formation, stand ground mode.

I am 2000 Elo and 1906 Elo custom maps. I'm in the top 600 players, so I mean well!
AuthorReplies:
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 11-17-18 03:41 AM CT (US)     1 / 22       
"- Cavaliers among the best because of supporting units" No, no no no no no, no no no. Malay cavalry is pretty much the worst in the game, what with their lack of both two armor upgrades for starters, and their best "support unit" for Cavaliers are Arbalests, which are... Decent, but there are plenty of civilizations with both Arbalests and-Much-Better Cavaliers. Even their Battle Elephants end up being circunstancial at best because of just how frequently they die before having the chance to deal any damage against anyone with decent archers. I think you underestimate just how important these armor upgrades actually are. Without then, their cavalry pretty much goes from "Countering archers" To "Being countered, and brutally, by archers."
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-18-18 03:34 AM CT (US)     2 / 22       
Nonsense. Use reverse logic.

Less piece armor means more melee combat.
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 11-18-18 04:12 AM CT (US)     3 / 22       
Less pierce armour means that your cavalry will happily ride into battle and die 3km away from the opponent with arrows in their heads

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa
MawBTS
I ONCE PUT AN ENTIRE ORANGE INTO MY MOUTH
(id: Bart Pimpson)
posted 11-18-18 02:52 PM CT (US)     4 / 22       
FU Malay cavaliers are exactly as strong as knights with bloodlines and full Imperial armor upgrades. That doesn't sound too promising.
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 11-19-18 09:30 AM CT (US)     5 / 22       
I also can't see the logic in
Less piece armor means more melee combat.
Well. Maybe. I can understand you'd use units with less pierce armour in fights against non pierce damage units. But rare are armies in AoK without some form of range support. And you still suffer some less melee armour from the lack of upgrades.

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-28-18 01:03 PM CT (US)     6 / 22       
I have used the Cavalry Archer to good extent and the Demolition Ship, and both are viable options in a defensive position. Malay can use Cavaliers as a shield for melee then pounce with Cav Archers to seal the deal. Since Malaysians have weak cavalry, or at least it seems, the tactic generally works, say 15 Cavaliers with 35 Horse Archers.

Support this with 50 Arbalests and you have a strong army. I do like the Karambit Warrior Battle Elephant combination very well, and the Halberdier Two Handed Swordsmen combination beats any trash combo the game.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 11-28-18 07:37 PM CT (US)     7 / 22       
I... Dont know what to say, except that you must have been plaiyng against some pretty big noobs to gain wins with this kind of army. Allow me to explain the problems with this army composition:

-So, Cavaliers + Cavalry Archers seem like a good tactic on paper, but it has several problems with it. Even for the civilizations that pull it well( Huns and Magyars, albeit on their case it is more Paladins + Cavalry Archers. Some civilizations can pull variations of this strategy with unique units, for a example,the infamous Berber Cavalier + Camel Archer combination ), the main problem of this tactic is simple: You will need gold coming out of your ears to pull it off. This is why a lot of players, even as the Huns and Magyars, will prefer Hussars + Cavalry Archers instead. The thing is...

-The Malay, are NOT a civilization that pulls it well. See, the whole point of backing up Cavalry Archers with meele cavalry is that, besides their speed, their resistance to arrow fire. Cavalry Archers lose to other archers in terms of cost-efficiency, and they-Particularly-Suffer against Skirmishers. Mercifully, Cavaliers can soak up archer fire and deal up with those little threats. But not Malay Cavaliers. If you were to come at me with 15 Cavaliers and 30 Cavalry Archers, as the Malay, all I would need would be about 60 Arbalests, and you would lose with me expending much, MUCH less resources then you did...

-And then you bring in the Arbalests. Although Malay Arbalests are solid, the thing is that... Wanting to bring Arbalests into a Cavalier/Cavalry Archer combination would kind of ruin what is suppose to be their main advantage: Speed. A typical Cavalier/Cavalry Archer army can easily run away upon seeing a real threat to it, but-This-Way, the Arbalests would lag behind...

As for the other two combos: Well... Against 90% of trash-based armies, Two-Handed Swordsman would more then suffice... Halberdiers would only be necessary against the Magyar UU. And you REALLY should not be using Battle Elephants as the Malay, at least not in the Imperial Age. If you must use Karambit Warriors( A unit I was never fond of, to be honest ), use then alongside Arbalests.

[This message has been edited by Draco_Wolfgand (edited 11-28-2018 @ 07:39 PM).]

TriRem
Huskarl
posted 11-29-18 04:24 AM CT (US)     8 / 22       
I am 2000 Elo and 1906 Elo custom maps. I'm in the top 600 players, so I mean well!
May I ask on what platform ? Because with strategies like that you are definitely not 2k on HD, let alone 2k on Voobly.

Malay have bottom tier cavaliers, I'll take Saracens knight with full upgrades over Malay cavalier. And their cavalry archers are not better, missing critical upgrades like heavy cav archer, bloodlines and parthian tactics. Cavalier and CA is hands down the worst combo you could make as Malay.

Fluctuat nec mergitur.

[This message has been edited by TriRem (edited 11-29-2018 @ 04:25 AM).]

Kataphraktoi
Squire
posted 11-29-18 10:02 AM CT (US)     9 / 22       
Murdilator is a notorious troll for a long time, I wouldn't take what he says there too seriously trirem.

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
TriRem
Huskarl
posted 11-29-18 10:09 AM CT (US)     10 / 22       
I know, I just can't resist to poke it to see how silly it will get

Fluctuat nec mergitur.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 11-29-18 11:20 AM CT (US)     11 / 22       
Huh. And here was I, thinking I met someone who was actually more of a noob then me. Well, there goes my hopes down the drain
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 11-29-18 01:26 PM CT (US)     12 / 22       
And here was I, thinking I met someone who was actually more of a noob then me.
I still exist Draco, don't worry.

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa
Dave3377
Squire
posted 11-29-18 04:37 PM CT (US)     13 / 22       
Nothing beats a post-imperial Teutonic Scout rush. Except maybe a Turkish trash war.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 11-29-18 05:12 PM CT (US)     14 / 22       
The best thing about Teutonic Scouts? You can get then fully upgraded more cheaply then any other civilization.
Barbarossa89
Knight
posted 11-29-18 09:00 PM CT (US)     15 / 22       
Same with those post imperial Spanish foot archers. And they don't need gold to get the blacksmith upgrades!

Oh, how about Persian swordsmen in late imperial?

And mangonels for the Turks and Huns....

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.
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In all seriousness: When a unit is missing an upgrade for a civilization, that is a mark AGAINST it. A civilization needs a pretty good reason to use a unit that is missing upgrades. Sometimes they have it, but often not. Examples include:

Goths miss the last infantry armor, but the cheapness and creation speed more than make up for it. Go full infantry.

Huns and Mongols miss the last archer armor, but are still good for cavalry archers and mangudai, respectively, because bonuses.

Malay miss champions, but are still good for 2-hand swordsmen due to no gold cost.

Berbers miss paladins, but their cavaliers are cheaper.

Malians miss blast furnace, but their champions are great because of extra pierce armor.

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Malay have very little reason to go cavalry. Even the tankiest of theirs, the battle elephant, dies to all ranged units extremely fast.

Malay are much better off playing Viking style.
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-30-18 02:17 AM CT (US)     16 / 22       
It's good to find some acceptance!

O was wondering whether my talents would be appreciated.


I play Custom made maps that are ranked, which start with more units for all players. This way I can grab all five relics quickly, or gather doubled gold supplies and drain my opponent out of his.

Malay are my favorite civ and I am not hurt by what any of you say. Of course my strategies seem ludicrous. But 30 Malay Cavaliers and 30 Malay Cavalry Archers can defeat 55 Viking Elite Berserks. All you do is patrol move into the formation, and press stand ground, not aggressive. I lost 15 Cavaliers in my engagement.

Anyone play here on the map called Earth.rms? I made a version of it which starts with 45 to 100 more villagers for each player, along with 15 extra Transport Ships.

Currently I am 1961 on Rush and 1905 on Deathmatch.
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-30-18 02:21 AM CT (US)     17 / 22       
Custom maps are ranked! Just copy them into random map scripts.

As I am a coder I know how to make maps, also its possible to make map scenarios, where you build the scenario then copy an existing rms and rename it after the scenario name. This gives you .rms and .sxn!

The French aren't who you think they are.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 11-30-18 03:06 AM CT (US)     18 / 22       
I mostly agree with Barbarossa, but I would say there are some exceptions when it is worth making a unit that is not fully upgradeable on the Imperial Age even if you lack bonuses directly benefitting this unit-line. For a example: Cavaliers. Surely, they arent AS awesome as Paladins, but I wouldnt say you should flat-out discard to use then just because you lack the Paladin upgrade. They are still better then Hussars, if you have the gold to afford.
TriRem
Huskarl
posted 11-30-18 07:52 AM CT (US)     19 / 22       
Cavalier are kind of an outlier, you can (and should) make them in certain situations even if you don't get paladin. Paladin is just the cherry on top of the cake if you can get the upgrade. It's definitely not like going crossbows in imp without arbalest for example.

@murdilator do you mean you are 2k on HD ? If yes I'd love to play you, I've been wanting to farm my way up to 2k and you seem to be the perfect victim with strategies like that.

Fluctuat nec mergitur.

[This message has been edited by TriRem (edited 11-30-2018 @ 07:53 AM).]

The Battler
Squire
posted 12-01-18 03:02 AM CT (US)     20 / 22       
Malay are my favorite civ and I am not hurt by what any of you say. Of course my strategies seem ludicrous. But 30 Malay Cavaliers and 30 Malay Cavalry Archers can defeat 55 Viking Elite Berserks. All you do is patrol move into the formation, and press stand ground, not aggressive. I lost 15 Cavaliers in my engagement.
lmao this guy is on another level.
murdilator
Squire
posted 12-01-18 08:10 AM CT (US)     21 / 22       
You already know who I am, and it's ok to keep my name quiet. Maybe we meet perchance sometime.

I always host All welcome games and I only play crazy maps. So it's maybe not likely we meet TriRem. Sometimes I play on Single player, sometimes on RM, sometimes on DM. But it's always crazy maps with 400 pop or so. Probably not your style.
Barbarossa89
Knight
posted 12-01-18 03:49 PM CT (US)     22 / 22       
By no means do I intend to imply that a unit should be ignored completely because it misses some upgrades; merely that missing an upgrade is a strike against using that unit. It may not mean it is impossible, nor even that there are no situations where it would be beneficial.

I have used cavaliers as Turks, Britons, Mongols, and even Vikings and Koreans on occasion. The need arises sometimes, just not as commonly as with Spanish or Teutons.

Koreans are highly encouraged to make halberdiers, despite missing blast furnace.

Aztecs and Vikings often make pikemen, despite missing halberdier.

Capped rams and onagers are commonly seen among civilizations that miss their 3rd tier upgrades.

There are of course more example like this.

However, when a civilization misses a TON of upgrades, one generally shouldn't be seeing them used too often later in the game. Spanish archers. Teuton scouts. Saracen knights. Persian swordsmen. Turk trash. Ethiopian camels. There may be situations here and there, occasionally, when it is beneficial to make these late in the game, but to claim that it is a STRENGTH of the Persians to miss 2-handed swordsman, or that missing pikeman makes the Turks BETTER is misguided at best.

Having an option available is always better than NOT having the option.

A missing technology is not a strength, nor should it be construed as such. Malay are made WEAKER through lack of cavalry armor, not stronger; just as Teutons are made WEAKER through lack of light cavalry, not stronger.

This does not make either civilization weak; each has plenty of other options available for fighting a variety of styles. However, neither one should claim that lack as a weakness which makes the respective unit a better option for them.
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