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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » General and Strategy Discussion » Khmer Strategic Strengths
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Topic Subject:Khmer Strategic Strengths
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-22-18 07:21 AM CT (US)         
Hey all!

I'm an optimist. That means I don't give up.

I feel the Khmer were a good civ but now are better because of Arbalests. I like that change.

However I'd like to talk about the Khmer strengths, which are:

- Good Cavaliers
- Good Cavalry Archers
- High attack Elephants
- Artillery with upgrades
- Good Scorpions
- Cheap Ballista Elephants
- Strong Gunpowder units (hand cannoneer and bb cannon)
- Weak Infantry (this can be a plus)
- Strong Castles
- Treadmill Crane (good for building and Wonders)
- Strong Arbalests
- Keeps
- Solid Navy and Shipwright
- All Mining upgrades

This all said, the Khmer can be tough to face, formidable in battle, and strong in defense. I've won with them over a hundred times, so it's good to say that I can play them.

They are best in lategame situation, where the trees run low and you can shoot down trees with Ballista Elephants. Also, their Cavalry are stronger than say, the Malay, so you can do that too. Note they cannot spam cavalry, but only train quality units.

I find their infantry are good enough and can take a beating with the proper cavalier-elephant support. They are a must in any serious game, especially where one starts with 115 villagers.

The big starts help because most players cannot handle 55 Paladins or 55 Champions at the map start, nor can they handle Castle-Wonder Victory. I add extra resources to maps, say 50% more Gold and Stone quantities and 50% more forage and animals, to make it harder to counter the land strategy.

Strong maps include

- Bog Islands
- Pacific Islands
- Mangrove Forest
- Steppe
- Valley
and more.

Another great strength of the Khmer is their having Husbandry. This gives their Cavalry an edge over many civs, because they can choose massive fights. It also helps pathing of units to find their targets more quickly. I'd say its a 15% combat boost. Their elephants have 25% total more speed, and its a 30% combat boost.

This all said, I still favor their archers, which are 2nd line units and should be used in every matchup.

Great Trebuchets as well.

Cheerio!
AuthorReplies:
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 11-22-18 10:39 AM CT (US)     1 / 13       
I think you greatly underestimate how much the lack of Thumb Ring hurts archers-Especially Cavalry Archers. Khmer archers are not unusable, but they are hardly top tier either. Personally, I would switch to Hand Cannoneers over Arbalests with the Khmer as soon as I get the chance... But then again, I am a huge HC guy to begin with, so I may be biased

I would say the presence of Husbandry is not exactly bragging material when there are only six civilizations who lack it( And of these, three lack any cavalry units whatsoever ). With that said, the Khmer DO have very good cavalry. Other then the obvious( Their Battle Elephants ), the Khmer Knight Rush is pretty good on virtue of their very fast Fast Castle and not needing to build barracks, and for similar reasons so is their Scout Rush on the Feudal Age. On the Imperial Age... I would say their Cavaliers lose a-Bit-Of their usefullness( As, if you want a heavy cavalry unit that can walk all over most non-spear infantry, Battle Elephants are better, and if you want a speedy unit for hit and run tactics, Hussars are most cost-effective ), but there are some roles that by the end of the day only heavy cavalry does well, and they arent bad by any measure. Overral, I would say that late game the Khmer tend to rely mostly on elephants and siege, but they are certainly capaeble of doing more then that, -Especially-In middle game. Due to having great siege and solid defenses, the Khmer can perform well in defensive maps like Arena, though played well they can do surprisingly well in more open or agressive maps on virtue of being really good at Feudal Age rushes and having a great Fast Castle strategy. I would say that, due to their versatility, it is kind of hard to think of many maps where they cant handle theirselves, actually. Just dont forget: When plaiyng as the Khmer in Bog Islands in 1v1, Bog Islands is infamously short on resources, and most of the Khmer best late-game units are quite expensive, so it is best to start the agression as soon as possible.

[This message has been edited by Draco_Wolfgand (edited 11-22-2018 @ 10:41 AM).]

TriRem
Huskarl
posted 11-22-18 04:48 PM CT (US)     2 / 13       
Never even consider cav archer if you don't have thumb ring. I don't care if they have all other upgrades, with only 60% accuracy and firing 20% slower than other CA they impossible to use.

Khmers have their obvious strengths in late game with elephants + scorps, but it's an expensive army, only viable in imp. Until that point they can be quite underwhelming. No thumb rings makes the archery range not very appealing, but serviceable if you need arbalest or elite skirm. Cavalry (outside of elephants) is serviceable too, with full upgrades on cavalier but no real bonus. The lack of hussar hurts a lot vs monks, specially since you are likely to go elephants you have neither faith nor heresy. Infantry is below average, you only use it for halbs. Siege is pretty good only missing SO, and +1 range on scorpions in castle age is pretty handy.

Overall khmers have pretty identifiable strengths and weaknesses : they shine in a late game with gold situation, where battle elephants + scorpions with double crossbow have close to no counter, but they struggle all the way until imperial with the lack of any strong economic or miltary bonus.

Fluctuat nec mergitur.
The Battler
Squire
posted 11-23-18 07:39 PM CT (US)     3 / 13       
- Good Cavaliers

- Good Cavalry Archers

- Cheap Ballista Elephants

- Weak Infantry (this can be a plus)

- Strong Arbalests
Uhhhhhhhh...well, uh, actually...
I'm an optimist.
Hmmm...

[This message has been edited by The Battler (edited 11-23-2018 @ 07:39 PM).]

murdilator
Squire
posted 11-24-18 04:58 AM CT (US)     4 / 13       
Barbarossa89
Knight
posted 11-24-18 01:22 PM CT (US)     5 / 13       
I fail to see how weak infantry can be construed as a plus.

For me, the strength of the Khmers lies in not having to build prerequisite buildings for anything. They can advance sooner, make a stable with no barracks, make a siege workshop with no blacksmith, and so on. Then elephants with scorpions and halberdiers will rain destruction on everyone.
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-28-18 01:05 PM CT (US)     6 / 13       
Khmer are a strong civ, because they have Blast Furnace, Bracer, Siege Engineers and Plate Barding Armor.

The weak infantry sorts out like the Malay Infantry do. Strong because of supporting units. Plus you don't have to upgrade to Champion.

When I play Khmer I like to use 20 Two Handed Swordsmen and 20 Halberdiers. Then combine this army with 20 Cavaliers and 20 Battle Elephants.

I am of course talking about when you have resources for all the armies.
TriRem
Huskarl
posted 11-28-18 04:46 PM CT (US)     7 / 13       
The weak infantry sorts out like the Malay Infantry do. Strong because of supporting units. Plus you don't have to upgrade to Champion.
I don't get the logic, how is not having the option to upgrade to champion a good thing ?

As for actual gameplay, I don't think there is a single situation where I would go the champion line as khmer, it's just a waste of resources when you miss champs, squires and plate mail armor.

Fluctuat nec mergitur.
MawBTS
I ONCE PUT AN ENTIRE ORANGE INTO MY MOUTH
(id: Bart Pimpson)
posted 11-28-18 06:15 PM CT (US)     8 / 13       
I don't get the logic, how is not having the option to upgrade to champion a good thing ?
Doesn't EVERY civ have the option to not upgrade to champion? It's not like the developers come to your house and force you to do it at gunpoint.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 11-28-18 07:24 PM CT (US)     9 / 13       
"The weak infantry sorts out like the Malay Infantry do. Strong because of supporting units. Plus you don't have to upgrade to Champion."

Malay infantry isnt strong because of its supporting units: It is strong because of Forced Levy. And, as pointed out by the other players, no civilization "have" to upgrade to Champion. You... Are aware, that just because a civilization has access to a given upgrade, it doesnt always means you "have" to buy it, right? And that in fact, go out on a crazy triyng to buy every single upgrade can be a bad idea on most maps?

"When I play Khmer I like to use 20 Two Handed Swordsmen and 20 Halberdiers. Then combine this army with 20 Cavaliers and 20 Battle Elephants."

With all due respect, that right there is a mess of a army composition. I can kind of see the logic of wanting to pair Elephants with militia-line units( Elephants basically acting like Rams that soak up arrow fire for your Champions, while your Champions deal with those pesky Halberdiers ), but the Burmese are the only civilization that actually does it well. Also, investing-This-Many resources on meele units is hardly a good idea, and pairing Cavaliers with Champions is also not as good of a idea as it sounds, as the Champions kind of "hold back" the Cavaliers speed( Unless you are pretty good at micromanaging ). And there is barely a point on triyng to pair Elephants with Halberdiers: I mean, what, do you think your opponent is gonna try to counter Elephants by sending their cavalry after then?
Barbarossa89
Knight
posted 11-29-18 08:47 PM CT (US)     10 / 13       
As a rule, a "strong" combination should involve as few units as possible, for the simple reason that this means fewer overall upgrade costs. Typically, a two-unit combination is liked; one as the "main" unit, and one as the "support" unit, which counters the counters of the "main" unit, or soaks up fire for it.

For example, look at the Frank combination of Paladins and Throwing axemen. Paladins are a strong unit which have just a couple of weaknesses; mainly halberdiers and camels. Throwing axemen counter both of those effectively. They are weak to hand cannons, scorpions, archers, and onagers, all of which are countered well by paladins.

For the Khmers, the central unit of choice is the battle elephant. What is it weak to? Most halberdiers. So the Khmers want a support unit to counter halberdiers. They have three good options: hand cannons, ballista elephants, and heavy scorpions. Hand cannons are the cheapest, ballista elephants are the tankiest, and scorpions have the longest range: nine range for Khmers.

Of course, you will have siege along, and halberdiers or hussars are welcome cheap units to go along.

Khmers have no business using the swordsman line in the imperial age.
murdilator
Squire
posted 11-30-18 02:30 AM CT (US)     11 / 13       
Nonsense. Only use Khmer Infantry in the Campaigns and you will see how effective they are.

Of course I believe in Ballista Elephants, Cavaliers, and Heavy Cav Archers. I was worried for a bit that Khmer might be left out of the recent patch, but it turns out they have good Arbalests, and what I mean by that is that compared to crossbows they are strong.

But let's get on to sharing. DO any of you use Khmer Siege Rams? They are the only team with siege rams about the South-East Asians. Also Khmer have Onagers, which is a plus, then Bombard Cannons.

I forget their Scorpions but whatever. Khmer have no Bombard Towers so it's great to mirror them and see your opponent try to build keeps! Castles are very strong too, just as good as the Viking Castles.

One downside is that Khmer are very food heavy. This can be complimented by having extra berries or double the sheep. Say start with 8 two groups of two sheep, and 4 groups of four sheep, and 12 two groups of two forage, making 16, 16, 12, 12. This is more food than normal and allows you not to build farms early. 1600, 1600, and 1500, 1500 makes about 6000 food without farming. (Include 100 food rotting).
MawBTS
I ONCE PUT AN ENTIRE ORANGE INTO MY MOUTH
(id: Bart Pimpson)
posted 11-30-18 03:47 AM CT (US)     12 / 13       
Also Khmer have Onagers, which is a plus
Since all civs get those except Turks and Huns, it's really more of a default.
One downside is that Khmer are very food heavy. This can be complimented by having extra berries or double the sheep. Say start with 8 two groups of two sheep, and 4 groups of four sheep, and 12 two groups of two forage, making 16, 16, 12, 12. This is more food than normal and allows you not to build farms early. 1600, 1600, and 1500, 1500 makes about 6000 food without farming. (Include 100 food rotting).
But wouldn't this only help if they had a berry/sheep bonus, like Franks/British? Otherwise, it's helping their opponents as much as it helps them.
Barbarossa89
Knight
posted 12-01-18 04:49 PM CT (US)     13 / 13       
Nonsense. Only use Khmer Infantry in the Campaigns and you will see how effective they are.

One would hope that you can understand that a campaign or scenario, of which the Khmer campaign is a very easy specimen, is not indicative of how most random maps are usually played. Of course you can win the campaign with two handed swordsmen. You can also win it with skirmishers and siege, which doesn't mean that those are ideal late-game options in a standard game. It means the campaign isn't hard.

Of course I believe in Ballista Elephants, Cavaliers, and Heavy Cav Archers. I was worried for a bit that Khmer might be left out of the recent patch, but it turns out they have good Arbalests, and what I mean by that is that compared to crossbows they are strong.

This is true of every civilization with arbalests, which is a majority of them. I fail to see how this makes Khmers special....

But let's get on to sharing. DO any of you use Khmer Siege Rams? They are the only team with siege rams about the South-East Asians. Also Khmer have Onagers, which is a plus, then Bombard Cannons.

Rams are useful, whether you get siege rams or just capped rams. Most civilizations will use them in some situation or another lategame. Khmers are no exception.

I forget their Scorpions but whatever.

Khmer scorpions shoot two bolts, and have +1 range. They are arguably the best scorpions in the game. Interesting to see someone "forget" about their scorpions, which are one of their main selling points as a civilization. Seems to me like someone "forgetting" about Goth infantry or Hun cavalry.

Khmer have no Bombard Towers so it's great to mirror them and see your opponent try to build keeps! Castles are very strong too, just as good as the Viking Castles.

Not sure what this means.

One downside is that Khmer are very food heavy. This can be complimented by having extra berries or double the sheep. Say start with 8 two groups of two sheep, and 4 groups of four sheep, and 12 two groups of two forage, making 16, 16, 12, 12. This is more food than normal and allows you not to build farms early. 1600, 1600, and 1500, 1500 makes about 6000 food without farming. (Include 100 food rotting).

So you are suggesting crafting a map specifically with more food just for the Khmers. Of course, every civilization will get the benefits of this, unless you make cheat maps that give one player more resources than another.

Farming isn't a terrible idea; every civilization will be doing farms to some extent in an extended imperial game anyway, except on water maps.

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Look, if you want to play scenarios and campaigns, that's great. It can be a lot of fun, and many players come to this game just for the solo experience.

If you like to play custom style maps, that's fine too. I myself have been known to play forest nothing, perhaps the king of non-standard maps. If I were to take that map, however, and use it as evidence that the Mayans are a terrible civilization, (their resources lasting longer is a tremendous detriment on that map,) I would be wrong. But if I were to go further, and say that the Celt woodcutting bonus is terrible on that map, (a total lie; Celts are one of the strongest civilizations on that map,) I would be approaching your level of talk about civilizations and their uses.

If you want to play weird maps, do so by all means. But don't use maps with 50 villager starts to decide that one strategy must generally be superior to another.

If you feel good about beating people with maps that you specifically designed and practiced for, have fun. I hope you enjoy yourself, as this game is all about having fun.

But don't come claiming that a certain strategy that you have used to good effect is generally a good strategy for a civilization.

Most people play maps on a spectrum from Arabia to Black Forest. When players discuss strategy, unless another map type outside this is specified, one assumes that something standard like this is under discussion. Are Huns a viable rushing civilization? Absolutely. Are Spanish? On black forest, yes. On Arabia, with more difficulty. Is galley rushing a good strategy? Not on Arabia or Black Forest. Try another map.

When should you expect to be in the castle age? On Arabia through black forest, 15-17 minutes is standard, depending on strategy. If I am talking about forest nothing, 40-50 minutes is more standard. But I would have to specify that, and if I come to a forum and boast about getting a a 35 minute castle time, I have every right to expect people not to be impressed.

So perhaps, on some weird map out there, the Khmers are good with 2-handed swordsmen, but not elephants or scorpions. I cannot completely discount that possibility. But don't come here, make a claim like that, and expect it to go undisputed. If you want to share your unusual map types, that's fine.

But don't go boasting about a 19xx rating that is based purely on playing uncommon map types. I am 18xx, but that comes from more standard maps. If I played just forest prison, I would be much lower. If I played just black forest, I might be higher.

Try some of the basic map types and see. You might actually find you enjoy some of them.
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