Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 07-12-18 11:28 AM CT (US)
Some of you may know, I am a very defensive player that has lately been triyng to test out some new strategies. Some of you may also know, the Byzantines are my favourite civilization.
With these two pieces of information said, I have a question: Do any of you have advices on rushing with the Byzantines? I heard a lot about their spearman/skirmisher rush. I was never sure about it, though, as I always treated their cheaper trash as a more defensive bonus then a offensive one. Usually, when I do that, my trash units end up diyng. On another hand, I would be hard pressed to think of just what kind of rushing strategy would work better for the Byzantines. Although I enjoy Scout and, to a extent, even Knight rushes( Although I go through some extent to avoid using Knights too much, because... Judge me if you want, but I have this philosophy that, the Knight rush is a bit-Too-Good. In the sense that, it is so good, that the first measure of most opponents will be to setup some kind of counter to it ), the Byzantine one is a bit mediocre compared to other civilizations on virtue of the lack of Bloodlines and a strong economical bonus. I guess one could argue that Knights are always Knights, but still...
Mostly, I am curious as for what kind of rushing strategies do you recommend for the Byzantines, both in the Feudal and the Castle age. Should I stick with trash, or do you have anything else you recommend?
Barbarossa89
Squire
posted 07-13-18 00:42 AM
CT (US)
2 / 20
Byzantines have an amazing trash rush in the feudal age. I would build two archery ranges ASAP and make skirmishers and spearmen non-stop. In the castle age, upgrade them both and mix in mangonels or rams to kill town centers. Very powerful.
If you are going for a fast castle strategy, knights are always a viable option for civilizations that get them. Alternatively, crossbows or monks are good options for a Byzantine player; the latter especially so if your opponent goes knights.
Dave3377
Squire
posted 07-15-18 09:47 PM
CT (US)
4 / 20
Given that spears do so little damage to villagers and buildings, is there any point in using them in a flush if your opponent isn't making cavalry?
I suppose they could tank against men-at-arms, giving the skirmishers more time. But it seems like they would be poor at that too.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 07-15-18 10:09 PM
CT (US)
5 / 20
... As in opposed to skirmishers, which are known for the massive amounts of damage they dish out to villagers and buildings?
Honestly, I usually find little point on using spearman much during the Feudal Age... Even against cavalry, Scouts arent that strong, so the Men at Arms is usually sufficient while being good against much more stuff then the Spearman are. THe only real reason I can think of to invest a lot on Spearman on the Feudal age is if you are planning to quickly upgrade then to Pikeman on the Castle Age, where they can take a-Essential-Role with dealing with Knights. Although for what I heard, most players prefer using Monks and even massed Crossbowman, of all things, against Knights.
noble lancer
Squire
posted 07-16-18 02:47 AM
CT (US)
6 / 20
The point of rushing is rarely to win outright but more to disrupt opponents and thus gaining an upperhand... having skirms just firing randomly at vils idles them and the spears keep the scouts from killing the skirms.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 07-16-18 06:49 AM
CT (US)
7 / 20
I see... Eh, I still think archers are bettter for this role, honestly.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 07-16-18 04:07 PM
CT (US)
13 / 20
One more question: What other civilizations would you recommend trash flushes with?
I entertained the idea of doing a similar strategy with the Celts. Their Spearman can outspeed just about anything they cant counter on the Feudal Age, what is a big advantage for hit-and-run tactics. Now, about the same thing can also be said about Men At Arms, and indeed that is what I usually go with on the Feudal Age as the Celts, but Spearman translate better into Pikeman on the Castle Age. Just a thought, though.
Barbarossa89
Squire
posted 07-16-18 11:31 PM
CT (US)
14 / 20
I wouldn't really advise going full trash as any civilization except Byzantines, unless gold is extremely tight. Other options are usually better in the feudal and castle ages for most civilizations. If an enemy goes pure archers, then obviously massing skirmishers is the correct thing to do, but in most circumstances gold units are more versatile.
Byzantines just have such an unparalleled ability to mass trash that it suits them to go offense.
Dave3377
Squire
posted 08-27-18 10:41 AM
CT (US)
17 / 20
Here is a question:
How do you STOP a Byzantine Feudal trash rush?
My first thought was using towers. Sure the skirmishers will die slowly, but they can't attack the towers outside their range and spearmen will fall very quickly. The best counter for a Feudal tower rush should be men-at-arms (I would think), but the slow Byzantine economy makes that a difficult counter.
But...
I was playing around with this vs AIs and found that good AI can mass many skirms and spearmen before I even get my first tower up. They might not find my forward base until the second tower is up, but 20 skirmisher/spearmen cause serious problems the villagers trying to build the forward barracks/ranges and towers. That many units can also tank one of the towers while knocking the other down. Even with the Koreans I couldn't seem to do much other than delay the enemy with my towers. The toll it took on my economy ultimately led to disaster too.
This might be me just being too slow. I started first two towers as soon as I located the enemy. But that just seems too lat; they already had a dozen or two defensive units. Do I need to make militia/men-at-arms escorts if X amount of time passes and I haven't found the enemy yet? I admit that I have never watched a good tower rush video (suggestions are welcome), let alone one vs. Byzantines. That said, against lesser AIs (The Horde on Hard, Juggernaut on Standard) my tower rushes work.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 08-27-18 11:08 AM
CT (US)
18 / 20
I am not a -Big-Expert on tower rushes. I tend to find they are a better idea against more defensive players, as in, you know, build a few towers right outside of their base as to make ther attempts to expand harder... I am surprised I dont see this tactic being used more often in Arena. Anyway, I tend to find it is more risk then it is worth, pretty much. I would say that doing a Maa rush of your own is the best way to deal with the Byzantines on the Feudal Age overral, though, especially if you are plaiyng as the Japanese or another very fast civilization.
Barbarossa89
Squire
posted 08-28-18 10:52 PM
CT (US)
19 / 20
A tower rush relies on speed and positioning. If you are trying to COUNTER a trash rush using towers, you are too slow.
Men at arms make a decent counter to trash, especially if you are Goths or Celts. Depending on your micro abilities, you could try scouts and archers, though this can be difficult to use as a trash counter.
My favorite tactic, if I realize early enough that my opponent will go for a trash rush, is to wall off entirely. It is possible to be completely walled in on Arabia before trash units get to you, then get a fast castle and use castle age units to render retribution.
Be sure of what your opponent is doing, however. Full walling is risky against towers, militia, or scouts.