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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design and Discussion » Review guideline changes: VOTING THREAD
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Topic Subject:Review guideline changes: VOTING THREAD
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Mr Wednesday
Cavalier
(id: matty12345)
posted 07-10-08 08:13 AM CT (US)         
To make it painstakingly obvious so that nobody can complain they did not get a chance to voice their opinion, we will have the voting take place in this thread. Vote for which changes you would like to see as we go through the main issues.

THe first thing which is currently being decided is whether we as a community prefer an overall score to be given by the scenarios, or an averaged score of the 5 categories. This does not have anything to do with the various changes we have discussed, merely vote which system you prefer.

If you are unclear or wish to debate, please do so in this thread HERE. Try to keep this thread to mainly votes so when we count it is easier.

Post one of the following options:

Vote: Averaged Categories

or

Vote: Overall Score

If you already voted in the other thread, do not repost I am collecting those votes and will add them to the tally in this thread.



Averaged Categories
--------------------
Julius999
Lord Basse
Mashek (White Dragon)
Jon Mendl


Overall Score
--------------------
Andrew Dunn
Jatayu
Turty

[This message has been edited by matty12345 (edited 07-10-2008 @ 08:17 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Andanu Trisatya
Squire
posted 07-14-08 09:24 PM CT (US)     36 / 66       
Bullshit. It's not about the community. It's never been about the community. Not for some, at any rate.
What I'm trying to imply was, the majority of us definitely need a change in the system, regardless of what kind of alteration would come into realization, instead of having none at all. Those who don't can be considered as either pessimistic or opinionated, and really should understand that this is for the greater good, not leaning towards a degradation.

But you do have a point there.

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/\NDANU TRISATY/\
The Least Skilled Member of StormWind Studios

-:|:- Blacksmith Files -:|:- Fabula Fatali -:|:- Photography -:|:- Age of Kings Heaven -:|:-

[This message has been edited by Andanu Trisatya (edited 07-14-2008 @ 09:28 PM).]

AnastasiaKafka
Squire
posted 07-14-08 09:34 PM CT (US)     37 / 66       
Kor, yes please, and thanks.

"I take it that this is the Anastasia Scud pines for?" - Epic Commander
"What Ana said. Use sugar and the whip." - aka the Pilot
"I think you will realize the emphasis was on Ana and Cake." - Monk
viperiv
Squire
(id: EpIc CoMmandeR)
posted 07-15-08 02:37 AM CT (US)     38 / 66       
Vote: Averaged Categories
Mechstra
Banned
posted 07-15-08 04:11 AM CT (US)     39 / 66       
What changed your mind?
crasher
Squire
posted 07-16-08 00:42 AM CT (US)     40 / 66       
Those who do not agree with me tend to be either new, or staff members. I'm surprised you don't see a pattern here.
I've always hated politics. But indeed, there are patterns. And of course, some are positive and some are negative...

Matt - Crasher
Crazedmaniac
Squire
posted 07-16-08 02:04 AM CT (US)     41 / 66       
Vote: Averaged Categories

CRAZEDMANIAC
The Ever Changing Maze Progress: 73%
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thepunkguy
Squire
posted 07-17-08 02:48 PM CT (US)     42 / 66       
Overall Score please.
Tanneur99
HG Alumnus
posted 07-17-08 05:43 PM CT (US)     43 / 66       
Averaged Scores

Initially we allowed unstructured reviews; the reviewer wrote some text about five, four, three or less categories and filled the five ratings to arrive to some overall score. Even official reviewers did that. Many members complained and the review moderators received instructions to reject reviews which where not rated separately for each category.

Recently Mashek (White Dragon) and I refused a review where the reviewer lowered the score for playability and balance to get to the overall rating he wanted to give. The map design was very good, the story was good, clear instructions and sufficient hints, and therefore, he could not give a fair score for playability and balance, he wrote that he had to give lower ratings to balance the map design and story/instructions score. If some designers want this kind of reviews, I will not be in their way. To avoid overall scores, with the new blacksmith we received a mask with the five categories to fill in, and this since March 2005. Going back to a status before March 2005 means ignoring the majority will of that time and the changes we made. We will not change the five category ratings to one for the existing scenarios and campaigns. People submitted their work there trusting our 5-category review system.

However, the amount of designers that ask for an overall score surprises me and even if this looks like a draw, I propose an extra category for Single Players where we accept reviews with an overall score. It should be up to the designer which rating system he wants for his files. In addition, the designer can ask to move his entire existing work to that category. Reviews for the new category have one overall score, no categories, like recorded games, mod packs, utilities etc. I took note to move the work of the designers listed in post 21 under Overall Score to the new category.

I need a name for that category; I want those that are for an overall score to vote for the category name. "Single Player, overall score, no tutorial, no moderation" would be correct but too long. Due to limited space try to be as long as or shorter than
"Single Player Demos & Projects"
"Single Player, overall score"
would be okay,
"Overall score, no tutorial, no moderation"
would be too long.
If you need more categories for overall scores without rules and moderation, no tutorial please let me know.

In case that the new category needs a tutorial and review moderators, I am open to proposals.
Mechstra
Banned
posted 07-17-08 05:58 PM CT (US)     44 / 66       
I am not in favour of segregating this stuff at all.

In fact I will go further and say that the idea of making a new download category for 'overall score' is entirely ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by Andrew Dunn (edited 07-17-2008 @ 05:59 PM).]

Tanneur99
HG Alumnus
posted 07-17-08 06:08 PM CT (US)     45 / 66       
I thought you want your work rated with an overall score, so why not accept a new download category for those that are in favour of it.

The existing categories will not change to a one category rating making all existing reviews obsolete.

My proposal is a compromise, dictators are unable to compromise.
Mechstra
Banned
posted 07-17-08 06:16 PM CT (US)     46 / 66       
This isn't compromise, it's an Indian Reservation.
Tanneur99
HG Alumnus
posted 07-17-08 06:26 PM CT (US)     47 / 66       
What is the difference between new download categories with an overall score and changing the existing ones to an overall score, the result is the same you got what you wanted.

There are designers that want to keep the average score rating for their files and you should respect them as much as I respect the wish of those that want an overall rating.
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 07-17-08 06:33 PM CT (US)     48 / 66       
Actually, with the plan being proposed, category reviews would translate to overall score far better than the other way round. As said by those championing Overall score, reviewers could apply whatever categories they wanted, and so the present categories would not be disqualified. For example, a 5/5/4/4/5 score, resulting in 4.6, would become a 4.6 under overall score changes. Just the categories would no longer be force-fed to the reviewer.

I also feel that creating a separate category for overall score reviews is not a good idea.

And saying that there was a majority support for averaged categories in 2005 seems strange, as there was no census or vote whatsoever back then, so there are no figures and it is unreasonable for either side to claim a majority support in such an instance.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.

[This message has been edited by Kor (edited 07-17-2008 @ 06:35 PM).]

Gwame
Squire
posted 07-17-08 08:30 PM CT (US)     49 / 66       
Wouldn't a new category for overall scores result in searching difficulties? Your average, non-foruming user probably won't search for files in both. Those who place their files in the overall rating category would wind up receiving less attention, since users will mainly just check the main category.

I agree with what Kor said about old reviews not being obsolete. After all, if the overall score system was implemented, reviewers could still use categories if they wished, right?

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UnnamedPlayer
Squire
posted 07-17-08 10:29 PM CT (US)     50 / 66       
Going back to a status before March 2005 means ignoring the majority will of that time and the changes we made
Actually, the review system before March 2005 is nothing like what we are proposing.
It should be up to the designer which rating system he wants for his files.
Why? That makes no sense.
The existing categories will not change to a one category rating making all existing reviews obsolete.
Changing the scoring methodology of individual categories obsoletes reviews. 1 overall score doesn't. People can still average 5 categories if they want to. All the old reviews are entirely valid.
There are designers that want to keep the average score rating for their files and you should respect them as much as I respect the wish of those that want an overall rating.
And what respect did you give to designers who did not want their games rated by an inappropriate system for so many years? The double standard doesn't work.
sly_guy
Squire
posted 07-17-08 11:01 PM CT (US)     51 / 66       
Vote: Overall Score.

- ک

Ladies and Gentlemen, wear sunscreen. If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be IT. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.

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AnastasiaKafka
Squire
posted 07-18-08 04:56 AM CT (US)     52 / 66       
I need a name for that category; I want those that are for an overall score to vote for the category name. "Single Player, overall score, no tutorial, no moderation" would be correct but too long. Due to limited space try to be as long as or shorter than
"Single Player Demos & Projects"
"Single Player, overall score"
would be okay,
"Overall score, no tutorial, no moderation"
would be too long.
If you need more categories for overall scores without rules and moderation, no tutorial please let me know.
*stomach hurts from laughing*

Touché 99! Good one!

Seriously, in order of availability I think the one category should be named:

1. Nirvana

2. The Dance of Shiva

3. The Templar Treasure

"I take it that this is the Anastasia Scud pines for?" - Epic Commander
"What Ana said. Use sugar and the whip." - aka the Pilot
"I think you will realize the emphasis was on Ana and Cake." - Monk

[This message has been edited by Angel Anastasia (edited 07-19-2008 @ 06:42 PM).]

cat
Squire
posted 07-18-08 07:06 AM CT (US)     53 / 66       
@Kor after reading Tanneurs reply please change my Vote to: Averaged Scores or Catagories Thank you
Mr Wednesday
Cavalier
(id: matty12345)
posted 07-19-08 03:48 PM CT (US)     54 / 66       
My apologies for going on vacation, and thanks to Kor for keeping a running tally in my stead.

I am doing some unpacking but I will try to get back up to speed on things.

"And Matt is a prolific lurker, watching over the forum from afar in silence, like Batman. He's the president TC needs, and possibly also the one it deserves." - trebuchet king
hunnic paladin
Squire
posted 07-19-08 04:13 PM CT (US)     55 / 66       
BRAINSTORM!! HAD A GREAT IDEA(AND YES I AM YELLING SO EVERYONE HEARS! )!!!

Why cant we make it where there are two different types of reviewing: Overall Score and Averaged Categories. When someone clicks "Post Review" they get to decide which method they want to take, Overall Score or Averaged Categories. If one chooses Averaged score adn the review is accpeted, then the stars will be blue. If the review is an overall score and was accpeted, then the stars would be green. This is what I mean:

[JPEG, (262.36 KB)]

Now, Im not saying that the Dogs of war was rated as an average score(although it was) or that Medivia or King Campaign were overall score rated. I just took that SS today, and so I just randomly choose them to make a good example.

thoughts on that? IMO, I vote for that. :P

H U N N I C ~ P A L A D I N
HP is a very nice guy who'd rather be polite and nod his head in agreement to other people's opinions, than act tough and bluntly. -Andanu Trisatya
On another note, I read that you are 13, I must say that I think that you are very knowledgeable for 13. -street (That was a long time ago...)
Mystery Maze III - Currently Stalled - 39.8% Complete
Jatayu
Squire
(id: Sword_of_STORM)
posted 07-19-08 04:28 PM CT (US)     56 / 66       
That's not a bad idea, but misses the point. If overall score is allowed one could still average the categories and give it as an overall score.

,
Jatayu O===|¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯/
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UnnamedPlayer
Squire
posted 07-19-08 04:52 PM CT (US)     57 / 66       
Why cant we make it where there are two different types of reviewing: Overall Score and Averaged Categories. When someone clicks "Post Review" they get to decide which method they want to take, Overall Score or Averaged Categories. If one chooses Averaged score adn the review is accpeted, then the stars will be blue. If the review is an overall score and was accpeted, then the stars would be green. This is what I mean:
That is what the overall score is. Reviewers can choose between overall score and averaging categories. The color things is okay, but doesn't work for multiple reviews if they're one of each.

[This message has been edited by UnnamedPlayer (edited 07-19-2008 @ 04:53 PM).]

Powery
Squire
posted 07-19-08 05:15 PM CT (US)     58 / 66       
King Campaign <--- Strongly recommend. This hasn't get what it truly deserves. One of the best campaigns out there. A must download.
The maker of this is a genius.

[This message has been edited by Powery (edited 07-19-2008 @ 05:17 PM).]

AnastasiaKafka
Squire
posted 07-19-08 06:03 PM CT (US)     59 / 66       
Initially we allowed unstructured reviews; the reviewer wrote some text about five, four, three or less categories and filled the five ratings to arrive to some overall score. Even official reviewers did that. Many members complained and the review moderators received instructions to reject reviews which where not rated separately for each category.
Prior to your involvement a review could be unstructured as long as the content held a comment about each of the categories (in accordance with the guideline). It's no surprise that it would be changed now to reflect your view that they should be written out.

Also, you act as if there is some grand high council on reviewing, watching over us, and handing down instructions on reviewing. When in fact it's just you bringing your views, your arguments, your resolutions exclusively to an indifferent staff and requesting they be supported.

As far as the reviews with content reflecting less than the guideline requires, they were reviews approved prior to having anyone check them. In other words, before our time. Still, that's been your MO of embellishing history and events to fit your viewpoints. So, when the high council is afforded only your view on subjects they don't have an accurate account to make an informed decision.

"I take it that this is the Anastasia Scud pines for?" - Epic Commander
"What Ana said. Use sugar and the whip." - aka the Pilot
"I think you will realize the emphasis was on Ana and Cake." - Monk

[This message has been edited by Angel Anastasia (edited 07-19-2008 @ 10:47 PM).]

hunnic paladin
Squire
posted 07-19-08 11:14 PM CT (US)     60 / 66       
The color things is okay, but doesn't work for multiple reviews if they're one of each.
Actually, I think it would work. You just have one overall rating(which is yellow) and then in ()'s right next to the stars there are the two different ratings. Example:

Overall score rater gave it a 3.
Averaged categories rater gave it a 5.
Then it would look like this:

****(3 - 5)

Does anyone think that would work out nicely?
If overall score is allowed one could still average the categories and give it as an overall score.
Why would they do that if they could just pick Averaged Categories???

H U N N I C ~ P A L A D I N
HP is a very nice guy who'd rather be polite and nod his head in agreement to other people's opinions, than act tough and bluntly. -Andanu Trisatya
On another note, I read that you are 13, I must say that I think that you are very knowledgeable for 13. -street (That was a long time ago...)
Mystery Maze III - Currently Stalled - 39.8% Complete

[This message has been edited by Hunnic Paladin (edited 07-19-2008 @ 11:24 PM).]

four hundred babies
Squire
(id: Lord_Fadawah)
posted 07-20-08 05:30 AM CT (US)     61 / 66       
Interesting idea, but it would be pretty damned confusing to visitors who aren't familiar with the system.
hunnic paladin
Squire
posted 07-20-08 05:07 PM CT (US)     62 / 66       
We could get a sort of, "manual" under the words 'blacksmith' explaining it. You know, just saying, "Ratings of overall score are (color) and ratings of averaged categories are (color). Click here for more info." On the "more info" page, we could have the history of it and more details. :?

H U N N I C ~ P A L A D I N
HP is a very nice guy who'd rather be polite and nod his head in agreement to other people's opinions, than act tough and bluntly. -Andanu Trisatya
On another note, I read that you are 13, I must say that I think that you are very knowledgeable for 13. -street (That was a long time ago...)
Mystery Maze III - Currently Stalled - 39.8% Complete
Julius999
Imposter
posted 07-21-08 05:21 AM CT (US)     63 / 66       
Apart from being extremely unwieldy, you still have all the problems of any old person being able to submit an overall score review (being overly brief, decided on dubious grounds etc). We already have two classes of review (normal and official) and rather than adding two more (overall score normal and overall score official) it would be better to build on the divide we have now.

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Member of Stormwind Studios
crasher
Squire
posted 07-21-08 01:21 PM CT (US)     64 / 66       
Okay, I vote AGAINST adding a third class of review. I think the "community / official" setup is perfect, and having different FORMATS of reviews would just be too confusing.

I guess, Tanneur, I was thinking that "overall score" would be allowing for people to still give a 5.0 overall review if they were still blown away by a game despite one minor flaw. I didn't think much about "innately negative" people wanting to give a lesser overall score even though the campaign, by review category, was deserving a higher review. (As in, someone gives a 3.5 even though a campaign is all 4.0's or 4's and 5's, just because the "mediocrity" of the campaign as a whole didn't wow them enough to merit a 4/5...

Oh well, I guess anything we use is going to be a two-edged sword. Personally, I'd be fine with staying with "averaged" because I firmly believe that if a competent reviewer wants to give me less than a 5.0 review on a campaign, they'll also be kind enough to let me know what improvements in the campaign would help them change their mind. Assuming the review moderation system is working. And I always assumed it was working decently well, though I haven't been around LATELY to notice. I just know that when I took the time to submit a competent, thought-out review, it was accepted, and the horrible, one-liner reviews (one or two) that I submitted as a noob, well, thankfully they have magically disappeared... :-D

Matt - Crasher
Ilmarinen
Squire
(id: Cilibinarii)
posted 07-22-08 05:16 AM CT (US)     65 / 66       
I vote OVERALL SCORE dont ignore mee! .

Cilibinarii
My AOK Maps
hunnic paladin
Squire
posted 07-22-08 10:58 AM CT (US)     66 / 66       
We need to get the rest of HG involved in this. lol

H U N N I C ~ P A L A D I N
HP is a very nice guy who'd rather be polite and nod his head in agreement to other people's opinions, than act tough and bluntly. -Andanu Trisatya
On another note, I read that you are 13, I must say that I think that you are very knowledgeable for 13. -street (That was a long time ago...)
Mystery Maze III - Currently Stalled - 39.8% Complete
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