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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design and Discussion » Lend me your ears...
Topic Subject:Lend me your ears...
(id: Al_Kharn the Great)
posted 01-11-01 05:46 PM CT (US)         
There has been much talk lately of flame-wars breaking out in these forums, largely due to my involvement. I will not now apologize for my beliefs or how I presented them, but I will make it clear that, as of late, I have had many troubles outside of these forums, resulting in an anger which I suppose filtered onto these forums, and made me more irritated. Yet I can not just be a wimpering fool and say I am sorry... please forgive me... i will not be that.

Rather, I shall simply state my beliefs and concerns involving these forums. There is more to me than the apparent hatred of newbies and designing groups.

I am tired. I'll be honest. These forums have degenerated, in my mind, into pointlessness.

Many of you are too new to remembre what these forums used to be like, so I shall gladly enlighten you.

When the Age of Kings forums were created, we didnt have these break-downs into strategy, history, off-topic, and so on... we had one great forum where we discussed what would become of AoK which would not be released for still anothre year... we fought a little, too... in fact, we mainly fought.

I still remembre clearly the crazy flame-wars we had among each othre, and over the most ridiculous reasons... one person's mis-spelling of his screen-name... a jelly stain on someone's shirt in someone's picture on a picture thread... we did truly fight a lot, and over stupid reasons, but the fighting helped us... it united us and caused us to respect each othre as we wondered about AoK and often chatted about all othre sort of topics from the occasional politics to who was the prettiest model... sure we fought, but these fights helped to unite us.

Yet i am talking too much of AoK Heaven... after all, this is a scenario design forum... not just AoK Heaven, so let me tell you of AoE Heaven's forums...

the Scenario design community for AoE was much different from this one we have here... it was nicer... more peacefull... and, if you ask me, far better... it was a time when you visited the forums once a week and only saw ten new topics at the most... it was a time when newbies came once every three weeks, one at a time and did not make their prescence known by boasting of their fantastic campaign that will be the best ever... they came quietly and posted not a topic... but a post... as if to say that they would have to earn the right to post a new topic... it was a time when scenario designers worked alone... aspiring to each make a good campaign, but keeping quiet... advertisements were rare and most did not know of a new campaign until he saw it put in the granary, which only recieved an update once or twice a month... but through all this, and perhaps because of this, the scenario design community reached an epitome... it was perfect.

We have lost that perfection... how can we not have? look at these forums... our sins and faults are not coming in the form of flames and insults, but in the form of haughty newbies and haughtier designers... in the form of advertisements and boasts... in the form of new scenario secrets and RPG's...

With that, I shall leave you now... You shall still see my stray posts filtering occasionally on these forums, but otherwise, I shall not be here... I am leaving AoK Heaven, though I shall visit it occasionally, perhaps place a post or two, but wait and wait until perhaps one day, AoK heaven can begin to resemble its predessor... when we return to Scenario Designing...

For now, Adieu and thanks, dear Heaven

(id: Byzantine_Warrior)
posted 01-11-01 07:05 PM CT (US)     1 / 18       
Or stay and be happy

Tsunami Studios
"People are born to succeed, not fail." - Henry David Thoreau
The Conquistador
posted 01-11-01 07:20 PM CT (US)     2 / 18       
I guess I should be .

Nobody forced you to read that site, remember

The Downward Spiral
posted 01-11-01 07:37 PM CT (US)     3 / 18       
Well I can respect a few things you said. Like what you have to say about newbies. Some are way to immature to tolerate, and some are way too conceited to tolerate. But when games become more poplar, more fans come, and more personalities come: good and bad.

Well I'm sorry you're leaving. I know we've been on the wrong foot quite often, but good luck in wherever you go.

Opal Kestrel
posted 01-11-01 09:41 PM CT (US)     4 / 18       
Well, maybe a majority of newbies fill this forum with boasting and immaturity, but are all of us like that?

Zone Name: Opal_Kestrel
ICQ #: 105263441
posted 01-11-01 10:30 PM CT (US)     5 / 18       
See you around, Al Kharn.

e i g h t B a l l
(id: Jerusalem)
posted 01-12-01 06:01 AM CT (US)     6 / 18       
Too bad, it is (was?) nice to have you around, Al_Kharn.

Forgive me, but I must remark something. Before the release of AoK, I used to lurk a lot in the AoE Heaven forums. You're right, Al_Kharn - it was much less competitive and much more friendly and laid back. And you're right - the community is very unrecognizable in comparison to then.

It's become competitive, more of a dog-eat-dog world... like real life. The community has become a more real one, with more negative as well as positive traits, and IMHO it's great to have such a pluralistic environment to design in. It's more human. More real. May it become more like that in EE and other games.

...minus the mindless flaming and infantile ego issues, that is...

Just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Jerusalem (edited 01-12-2001).]

The Conquistador
posted 01-12-01 05:38 PM CT (US)     7 / 18       
I am sure that we all need a break from 'real' life .

Nobody forced you to read that site, remember

posted 01-12-01 06:23 PM CT (US)     8 / 18       
Al_Kharn:You said it brother!I guess I count as a newbie and it always irritated me to see my fellow newbies bragging about their alledgedly incredible campaigns, which would inevitably turn out to be a triggerless mess with little or no thought process involved. Ugh. No wonder old timers got mad! However, equally annoying are the "pros." With elaborate signatures and veritable clouds of bravodo following them, they brag and show off constantly. On the other hand, most of the time the so called pros, deliver. Also, we have these wonderful guys (although I easily could, I won't say any names,) who tell people to shut up because their questions are crap. Personally, I have absolutely no patience for this kind of rude behavior. In my opinion, a scenario design forum should be about just that: scenario design. A place where people can ask for help concerning triggers and map tricks. After all, the more knowledge exchanged,the better campaigns and scenarios will be. Also, As far as the flames and insults go, they are bound to happen occaisonally. Human nature is human nature. Of course, these fights should be periodic and should only involve major issues, such as a copied or stolen campaign. I think that with a little work and patience, we can return this forum to Al Kharn's and many other's, I'm sure, forum of olde. All we need is patience, perseverance, humility, and cooperation. Of course, this is only my opinion...
The Conquistador
posted 01-12-01 07:00 PM CT (US)     9 / 18       
I will list the 'pros', if you would listen.

Ingo van Thiel, Mark Stoker, Inquizative, Jerusalem, TDS, Rasher, Shadows, Ex-T, Gordon Farrell, Al_Kharn, Cherub Loco, Enrique Orduno, and maybe me.

Nobody forced you to read that site, remember

posted 01-13-01 05:04 AM CT (US)     10 / 18       
I agree with Al_Kharn and Jerusalem, but we can't do anything about that, can we? That's what happens when a site becomes too big, I guess.

Good luck, Al_Kharn. We'll miss you.

-The Phoenix

[The Phoenix - I have returned]
Andy, stop it. You're finding faults in their arguements, and that is completely unacceptable! - Electric_Koolaid, while debating with Christians
Yes but you're a nutter. - Mark, pointing out why normal standards don't apply to Phoenix
Winner of Rajah of the Sands' To[sic] Conceited For Any Other Awards Then This One
Death greets me warm, now I will just say goodbye...
posted 01-13-01 06:55 AM CT (US)     11 / 18       
This is a real shame, to have someone like Al_Kharn leave the world of our forums all because people just don't think before they act, this has no doubt been said before but I think I will say it again, if people just thought about what they are going to say and the possible consequences of saying it before they do it then hopefully things would be different. I haven't been to AOE heaven, and I haven't been here that long either but I think that people are competitive about scenario design, and I think it would be great to be able to ask someone something without fear of being regarded as stupid or as someone trying to copy the idea, But anyway that is just my two cents.
see ya.

"The best armor is to stay out of range"
Current project: Star Wars: Episode Woad
Third-In-Command and Graphic designer forWoad Creations

[This message has been edited by millen (edited 01-13-2001).]

posted 01-13-01 07:14 AM CT (US)     12 / 18       
Change is inevitable and this is only a forum for a game. As far as people boasting and gloating about their campaigns/scenarios... What do you really expect? No competition? Game = Competition.......... Yes I am a newbie to AoK, but not to forum groups and the gaming industry.

•€•—•€•—•€•———Ηιrwρ Vιgε———•€•—•€•—•€•
•€•—•€•—•€•————Nψdεmρ §tudψ————•€•—•€•—•€•
•€•—•€•—•€•——Εrηhκrs Θl‘tκ €FINAL€ (4.6 - Best of)——•€•—•€•—•€•
•€•—•€•—•€•——RON: Level Designer——•€•—•€•—•€•
•€•—•€•—•€•—MyUnreal Forum - Moderator—•€•—•€•—•€•
posted 01-13-01 01:12 PM CT (US)     13 / 18       
I suppose you could call me an annoying twit... immature if you will... but I still can have oppinions...
I agree with you kharn, I have seen other games fall to the annoyance of newbies, and aggrivating loud-mouths. You have probably been here MUCH longer than I, so I suppose you have gotten much more aggrivated than I have, as well.
So, I will respect why you are leaving (to an extent).
And to all a goodnight!

Cherub at Empire Earth Heaven - Administrator and Developer of Degrees of Zero Design
posted 01-13-01 02:12 PM CT (US)     14 / 18       
You forgot me, Stan. I made up your title! :*-(

The Conquistador
HG Slave

We interupt this sig to apoligise for this interuption.
Designer of
Proud Member of SCNPUNK.
Drop me a line @
How much wood could a WoodChuck Chuck if a WoodChuck Could Chuck wood?
posted 01-13-01 07:29 PM CT (US)     15 / 18       
It is truthfully a sad, sad day as AI_Kharn leaves this forum behind.

But I totaly understand him. I wasn't here from the beginning, before AoK was released, but well here amongst the first weeks of AoK-editing, and I agree that it was a lot better forum then.

Why does it has to be both negative and positive sides about this forum? We get enough of that each day, this scenario-forum and AoK Heaven itself is supposed to be an escape from reality as Stan said.

Why do people post large threads announcing their new campaign/scenario?

Why do some people send in crappy scenarios they've put together in half an hour just because they've happened to discover a little thing called "scenario editor" in AoK, and why do they steal the spotlight from people who actually try to create amusing and entertaining scenarios for people to enjoy?

Why has the need to be able to proclaim yourself veteran, expert or whatever just as long as you're not a newbie taken over most newcomers? What's wrong with being a newbie as long as you behave and put effort into your scenarios? NOTHING, although some people seem to think it is, and therefore they immediately try changing that title to "the best scenario designer ever"...which is the totaly wrong way to go.

I wish AI_Kharn all the best even though I really never got to know him, just exchanged a few topics here and there with him.

Good Luck/Martyn

•[New member of Wildfire Studios
don't want a signature. I'm just a victim of group-pressure."

[This message has been edited by martinhus (edited 01-13-2001).]

(id: Jerusalem)
posted 01-14-01 08:48 AM CT (US)     16 / 18       
Why does it has to be both negative and positive sides about this forum? We get enough of that each day, this scenario-forum and AoK Heaven itself is supposed to be an escape from reality as Stan said.

Then I guess there is no escape.

The scenario design industry has become - like all industries have - competitive. Having newbies and oldies, more talented people and less talented people, people who "sell" more and people who "sell" less, advertising, marketing - It all comes with the territory.

The important thing is to always think of the consumer and how to make the best scenario for him or her to play... other than that, there's nothing much else to do.

The Conquistador
posted 01-14-01 01:00 PM CT (US)     17 / 18       
I made up SpineMan's title

Angel SpineMan
HG Serf/Angel/Seraph/Halo

Nobody forced you to read that site, remember

[This message has been edited by The Conquistador (edited 01-14-2001).]

(id: Angel Park)
posted 01-14-01 09:06 PM CT (US)     18 / 18       
Haven't read all the replys but anyway..
I came to AOEH pretty late just months before AOK was released. I can say it wasn't as busy as here right now, but Al Kharn you have to realize what you said is what you think is perfection for a forum....Some people like to have more people in the forums even if they are all questions or newbies. Many people leave AOKH to go to other sites like PAOE (which now also has lots of people) and AOKB that has a smaller community.

I personally barely posted in the General or OD forums here because of the amount of people between the time AOK was out and before I became an angel. I visited AOK Atrium and AOKB where I could be heard. I never left the scenario forums though.

Some wish for a quieter place where you only talk about something important and no senseless posts on future campaigns, your 10,000th post, new review, or what not, but that is why many move to other sites. AOKH is a large site with many forumers, which might or might not make it the best.

In fact I was pretty bored at the old AOEH scn forums, I mean there was barely anything new happening, and just because there are lots of senseless posts here doesn't mean you are required to visit them.

All I'm trying to say is if anyone out there hates something either try to improve it in a good manner, leave to something you think is better, or create your own thing...just don't flame and all.

Grex, Imhotep, Jaded Knights, Punks, University, Glows, Facility, Trade Center, Stainless Steel Studios.

Former Seraph & Angel
My Twitter, i.e. don't bother
Learning Korean Language
Free Rice
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