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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design and Discussion » The Designer's Tavern IV - Ask questions and discuss scenario design!
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Topic Subject:The Designer's Tavern IV - Ask questions and discuss scenario design!
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HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 07-04-15 04:56 PM CT (US)         




Welcome to the Designer's Tavern! After switching owners twice before and undergoing some time-consuming renovations, the tavern is now in our capable hands. Who are we? That's a good question! We are HockeySam18 and Mr Wednesday, your benevolent oligarchs hosts! Established by SonicShadow in 2005, taken over by Matt LiVecchi in 2009, and passed on to Lord Basse in 2010, the tavern is a place for the SD&M community to sit down, relax and have a sip of an imaginary pint of ale. This is the place for general discussion on scenario design; talk about whatever you want as long as it's related to scenario design, downloads in the Blacksmith, and the like. If you want to say something totally unrelated to scenario design, the Town's Crier is a fine place to go to instead.



Seminars_on_Designing_and_Trigger Tricks

Have a new discovery you want to share with the world? A design trick, a good way to design a fortress, or a trigger system? Perhaps you feel the need to address what you think is a problem with designing? Contact us via email or post a reply with the article! It doesn't have to be something brand new, but it shouldn't be something of common knowledge either, like "A Guide on Painting Water on your Map" (though that can propagate some interesting discussion in of itself)! Write a paragraph or three, add a screenshot and send it off, and we'll make sure it gets up here.

Past seminars:


Designing a realistic forest, by HockeySam18

Current seminar:

Utilizing off-grid placement to its full potential, by Mr Wednesday




Off grid placement is the most powerful tool to come along since Data editing. I opened AoKTS three times when doing my PTC entry, compared to hundreds or thousands of times when doing The Quiet Dawn. While all the effects I used in Smile No More (and that screenshot) were technically possible before, the simple truth is no one would ever have done them. When covering the Asian monastery to get only the statue, I could select trees that had the exact shape as the outline of the statue (or close enough) and essentially just paint over the stuff I didn't want. To do that once with AoKTS would have taken probably a couple days. I did it in dozens of spots.

Designers haven't really picked up on the full power of this yet I don't think. AoK has always had a very limited set of graphics, and we use the closest approximation to represent everything we don't have.

Except now, people need to start thinking of all the graphics as just 2D images. If any part of a graphic can represent what you want, or any combination of parts, you can make it happen. In that screenshot, the obvious choice for a treehouse is the Outpost. The sea tower is the next thing you logically think of. But the best looking part might be the Archery range, which is a perfect example of using one quarter of a graphic or less, and essentially making the rest disappear.

The only thing that matters anymore is the front image essentially, which consists of whatever parts are showing from all the images.

I'd caution that 99% of this is depth perception, so watch the shadows, where the bases hit the terrain, etc. Make sure there isn't anything showing that breaks the illusions you are creating.



Playtesters and Other Requests:

Feel free to ask here, I will add your request to the topic post if it doesn't get fulfilled quickly. Go ahead and link your project thread as well if you like!



Help with AI Scripting for Custom Scenarios

For anyone struggling with AI scripting, this tool by Jan dc allows you to generate a competent AI tailored specifically to the needs of your custom scenario.



Current Projects and Screenshots:

We'd love to see screenshots and hear teasers from your current projects or whatever you've felt like working on. Feel free to post them and we'll start up a list below!

- Storm on the Steppe - by HockeySam18

- The Battle of Senc Tor - by Aristeides

- Wrath of the Traibs - by Possidon

- Aethelflaed Modification and Campaign - by Mash

- Paradise Lost Remastered - by Devastator

- Pirate's Treasure - by PresterJohn

- Barbarossa - the campaign - by Paul_TD



Tavern Staff:
Owners - HockeySam18 and Mr Wednesday
Patron and Resident Viking - Leif Ericson
President of the Board - Dead_End
Board Members - Popeychops and John the Late
Chef - Major Helper

"Hot" Barmaids:
Prester John
Miathemother

Menu:
Steak and ale pie
Rack of lamb
Grilled venison
Roasted iron boar
Spam
Vegetable medley
...

Drinks:
Glass of wine
Pint of ale
Bucket of ale
Tub of mead
Cider
Tea
Coffee
Guarana

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 07-27-2017 @ 08:49 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 04-04-17 10:01 AM CT (US)     1016 / 1611       
That sounds great but i did just try going through the editor and plomped down all terrain with shallows in its name;it all came with beach? I cant see how to do this inside the editor, but if you can, it would be amazingly helpful

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel

[This message has been edited by Cataphract887 (edited 04-05-2017 @ 03:16 PM).]

Julius999
Imposter
posted 04-04-17 04:27 PM CT (US)     1017 / 1611       
My personal approach is to place down the shallows etc and then edit out the beach in AoKTS, as opposed to placing down some other placeholder terrain and then swapping it for shallows. This way allows for you to mix shallows with the other water types in the editor and see what you are doing.

You can do it quite efficiently and avoid missing any tiles if you work in rows: starting at shallows and swapping out all beach tiles until you hit normal terrain, before moving one tile over and doubling back.

Being able to paint over the beach terrain in the editor would be amazing. The unremovable beach terrain surely ranks as ES' Greatest Blunder.

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios
Devious Dev
Official Professional Qualified Noob
(id: dragonslayermcmx)
posted 04-05-17 11:49 AM CT (US)     1018 / 1611       
It's easier to place down ice where you want the shallows, then use AoKTS to change it. It allows for easier terrain mixing around them. I can't imagine having to manually replace all the beach with whatever terrains you wanted instead.

D E V A S T A T O R
Paradise Lost ~ Scored 1st in the ACSC12! ~ Voted Best Cinematic Scenario of 2013 ~ Official Rating: 4.7
Demon Town ~ Scored 1st in the HHC11! ~ "...as unique as an AoK scenario can get." - Panel ~ Official Rating: 4.2

Proud Member of BlackForestStudios
My AoE2 Youtube Channel

[This message has been edited by Devious Dev (edited 04-05-2017 @ 11:50 AM).]

Bassi
Squire
posted 04-05-17 03:15 PM CT (US)     1019 / 1611       
I cant see how to do this inside the editor, but if you can, it would be amazingly helpful
When I was creating "Kings of Destruction" it was still possible. Since the latest patches and RoR it's not working no more, as I just found out.
Julius999
Imposter
posted 04-05-17 03:18 PM CT (US)     1020 / 1611       
True, but ice doesn't blend with water in the same way that shallows terrain does, so you can't really see what you're doing.

Blending also means that the terrain with which you replace the beach doesn't matter very much on the whole. Generally the replacement terrain will be grass anyway.

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 04-05-17 03:22 PM CT (US)     1021 / 1611       
Since the latest patches and RoR it's not working no more, as I just found out.
Interesting, might consider downgrading to that era temporarily for a map i was making. A RMS converted into a scenario (nile delta) as it was totally unplayable but when i installed the contest entries i forgot i had such a project and just deleted everything to start fresh...whoops...

"not working no more"

Your english is very good but i notice this mistake creeping into some of your sentences here and in scenarios;it should be "not working anymore" And in Manco Capac it was "I wont give in no more" at some point there

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel

[This message has been edited by Cataphract887 (edited 04-05-2017 @ 03:29 PM).]

Bassi
Squire
posted 04-05-17 06:16 PM CT (US)     1022 / 1611       
Your english is very good but i notice this mistake creeping into some of your sentences here and in scenarios;it should be "not working anymore"
Thanks for the correction. I won't make this mistake no ... uhm ... anymore ...
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 04-07-17 04:17 PM CT (US)     1023 / 1611       
Is it possible to make any unit of a certain AI player loose health (be damaged) when it's next to a player's unit without linkink every single unit to player's one?

Could someone explain me all the stuff around user patch please. Is it for non HD users? Does it work with HD too? What about Steam? I am lost and confused. Also many campaigns require it. What if I run Steam HD version. What to do?

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa

[This message has been edited by Great_Artiste (edited 04-08-2017 @ 08:37 AM).]

Cataphract887
Squire
posted 04-08-17 03:32 PM CT (US)     1024 / 1611       
The userpatch is sort of a mod that is mostly backwards compatible with the disc version of AoKTC;it cannot be used with HD Edition. However, there is a compatibility patch around that can downgrade a HD Edition installation into the disc version and then you could use the Userpatch. However, i dont know if you could have both at once using steam, anyway.

As for the userpatch itself, its basically what HD Edition should have been. Less bugs, the game runs better, less lag, better pathfinding, better AI, many new features. However it lacks the steam workshop integration, the new civ architectures, new terrains and stuff like that. Multiplayer on non HD Edition is hopeless for mods;voobly guys wont play mods in my experience.

I would recommend buying a disc copy of AoKTC and having the userpatch in addition to HD if your seriously into the game

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 04-08-17 03:42 PM CT (US)     1025 / 1611       
I thank your for this explanation
I will consider your suggestion about buying a disc version (for example I can't play relics of Athalen) so it would be a good investment. But you cannot design one same campaign in both right?

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa

[This message has been edited by Great_Artiste (edited 04-08-2017 @ 03:43 PM).]

Cataphract887
Squire
posted 04-08-17 04:00 PM CT (US)     1026 / 1611       
I think its possible that you can make a campaign for both, but you would need to make it in 1.0c which is very basic and lacking in features by now.

EDIT;Thanks for the accuracy correction

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel

[This message has been edited by Cataphract887 (edited 04-08-2017 @ 07:16 PM).]

HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 04-08-17 06:56 PM CT (US)     1027 / 1611       
A scenario designed in the UserPatch will be fully compatible with the HD Edition so long as it does not use any of the new trigger functionality, which does not align with that in HD. Much of the UP AI functionality is not present in HD, either, so UP AIs will not work in HD either.

However, there are some features from UP that do not cause compatibility issues (fourth unit/building/object placement mode, unlocked hidden terrains, various bugfixes) that make it appealing enough to design a scenario in UP that is meant to be played in HD. You can even do most of the base design of a scenario in UP, then copy it to your HD installation, modify the scenario dependencies, and then add DLC assets and objects if you should so desire.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 04-12-17 03:58 PM CT (US)     1028 / 1611       
About music: If I remember right, the timer stops when game is paused but played music doesn't. How to properly manage music so that it isn't ruined by looking and objectives often?

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 04-12-17 05:10 PM CT (US)     1029 / 1611       
There's not really a solution to that, although you can minimize the issue by having several tracks of shorter length rather than one long track.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Julius999
Imposter
posted 04-12-17 05:47 PM CT (US)     1030 / 1611       
There is a theoretical solution, along the lines HockeySam suggests: having each track split into extremely short segments (ie less than 10 seconds).

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 04-27-17 09:23 AM CT (US)     1031 / 1611       
I made a short cinematic and would love to get an opinion or two before I upload it in the Blacksmith. If anyone is interested tell me your mail (either here or send it to my email (in my profile) so that I can send them the file). Thank you in advance

Also if anyone is interested, he could help me with the voice acting. At least 2 voice actors would be needed for this.

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa

[This message has been edited by Great_Artiste (edited 04-27-2017 @ 09:24 AM).]

Mr Wednesday
Cavalier
(id: matty12345)
posted 04-27-17 02:39 PM CT (US)     1032 / 1611       
How is that brief tutorial of mine still up there? No one has come up with anything better in almost two years? :P

"And Matt is a prolific lurker, watching over the forum from afar in silence, like Batman. He's the president TC needs, and possibly also the one it deserves." - trebuchet king
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 04-27-17 04:20 PM CT (US)     1033 / 1611       
Maybe it was left there due to the very nice screenshot

I would really apreciate help with taunt trigger. I read the University tutorial, but I am still in the dark. Could someone explain me at least the basics?

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa

[This message has been edited by Great_Artiste (edited 04-27-2017 @ 04:23 PM).]

Devious Dev
Official Professional Qualified Noob
(id: dragonslayermcmx)
posted 04-29-17 12:46 PM CT (US)     1034 / 1611       
Need some help with a scenery concept. I'm trying to make some sort of walkable ramparts, or battlements. No modding, all expansions.

Gave it a go, but I can't really seem to figure it out. Nothing I try really seems to fit in any proper way. Any one of you geniuses got an idea?


D E V A S T A T O R
Paradise Lost ~ Scored 1st in the ACSC12! ~ Voted Best Cinematic Scenario of 2013 ~ Official Rating: 4.7
Demon Town ~ Scored 1st in the HHC11! ~ "...as unique as an AoK scenario can get." - Panel ~ Official Rating: 4.2

Proud Member of BlackForestStudios
My AoE2 Youtube Channel
Julius999
Imposter
posted 04-29-17 01:27 PM CT (US)     1035 / 1611       
Use bridge pieces.

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 04-29-17 02:17 PM CT (US)     1036 / 1611       
Maybe something like these? It seems tricky to use cliffs from that angle.

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel

[This message has been edited by Cataphract887 (edited 04-29-2017 @ 07:45 PM).]

Schwarz_Lizard
Squire
posted 04-29-17 03:50 PM CT (US)     1037 / 1611       
I would rather use elevations and some angle tricks. Like below, perhaps the bridges should be on an even higher elevation than walls:
Devious Dev
Official Professional Qualified Noob
(id: dragonslayermcmx)
posted 04-29-17 05:00 PM CT (US)     1038 / 1611       
Thanks for the replies everyone. Schwarz_Lizard, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Any chance this effect or something like
it can be achieved from the perspective in my shot, or does it need to be at the angle you made it, with the camera looking at the wall rather than out from over it?

D E V A S T A T O R
Paradise Lost ~ Scored 1st in the ACSC12! ~ Voted Best Cinematic Scenario of 2013 ~ Official Rating: 4.7
Demon Town ~ Scored 1st in the HHC11! ~ "...as unique as an AoK scenario can get." - Panel ~ Official Rating: 4.2

Proud Member of BlackForestStudios
My AoE2 Youtube Channel
Cataphract887
Squire
posted 04-29-17 05:08 PM CT (US)     1039 / 1611       
Very nice screenshot Schwarz_Lizard, come to think of it my 'ramparts" are kindof the opposite of what dev wanted with the wall in the way

"Excellent could be any map that has the quality of a ES random map or ES scenario. AoK is an excellent, award winning game. That's where I'd start." -AnastasiaKafka

"Hard work is evil. Bitmaps are stupid. Working on a scenario for more than one afternoon is stupid. Triggers are stupid. Testing your own scenario is stupid. The world is stupid. You are the Greatest." -Ingo Van Thiel
Mash
Huskarl
(id: Mashek)
posted 04-29-17 05:21 PM CT (US)     1040 / 1611       
Nice scene Schwarz Lizard.

This is a little something from my project. I opted to go for a much simpler way as you can see below. It still needs a little more work and I need to adequately cover those horrible black lines below the walls.

Devious Dev
Official Professional Qualified Noob
(id: dragonslayermcmx)
posted 04-29-17 05:30 PM CT (US)     1041 / 1611       
I like that too, Mash. My first instinct in that scenario would be to place invisible barriers behind them so that any units behind it won't actually go behind it, giving the illusion that they are "on" the wall.

Here's another go I gave mine:


D E V A S T A T O R
Paradise Lost ~ Scored 1st in the ACSC12! ~ Voted Best Cinematic Scenario of 2013 ~ Official Rating: 4.7
Demon Town ~ Scored 1st in the HHC11! ~ "...as unique as an AoK scenario can get." - Panel ~ Official Rating: 4.2

Proud Member of BlackForestStudios
My AoE2 Youtube Channel
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 04-29-17 07:16 PM CT (US)     1042 / 1611       
Mash, rubble squares usually suffice to cover those black shadows.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Schwarz_Lizard
Squire
posted 04-30-17 03:07 AM CT (US)     1043 / 1611       
Here's another go I gave mine:
Looks good. What I can suggest is maybe rotate the cliffs so they turn invisible. But it looks great either way.
Mash
Huskarl
(id: Mashek)
posted 04-30-17 09:03 PM CT (US)     1044 / 1611       
Looks much better Dev, although I would suggest covering that tiny blue speck of water to the far left of the battlements (beside the tower).
Mash, rubble squares usually suffice to cover those black shadows.
I tried that but the rubble disappears in game, I assume because of the elevation difference under the wall.
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 05-01-17 03:29 PM CT (US)     1045 / 1611       
What about placing them off-grid so that they only barely overlap (enough to cover the shadow)? That has usually worked for me.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Mash
Huskarl
(id: Mashek)
posted 05-01-17 04:26 PM CT (US)     1046 / 1611       
Yeah, tried every way under the sun. I think the only way it accepts rubble is if I disengage from off-grid placement and place them down normally, but in this case 3/4 of the rubble shows which isn't visually appealing.
Julius999
Imposter
posted 05-01-17 04:55 PM CT (US)     1047 / 1611       
What rubble size are you using?

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios
Mash
Huskarl
(id: Mashek)
posted 05-01-17 06:33 PM CT (US)     1048 / 1611       
Schwarz_Lizard
Squire
posted 05-02-17 02:53 AM CT (US)     1049 / 1611       
How about stacking plants to cover those black spots?
The Great Artiste
Serial No. 44-27353
(id: Great_Artiste)
posted 05-02-17 03:48 AM CT (US)     1050 / 1611       
Or straight Gaia paths.

Co-creator and leader of Monsoon Studios

You are kneeling with your tongue out? What exactly do you think is going to happen here? - Matt

A drush is not a knockout punch; it is the first punch in a combo - Barbarossa

[This message has been edited by Great_Artiste (edited 05-02-2017 @ 03:49 AM).]

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