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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design and Discussion » The Designer's Tavern IV - Ask questions and discuss scenario design!
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Topic Subject:The Designer's Tavern IV - Ask questions and discuss scenario design!
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HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 07-04-15 04:56 PM CT (US)         




Welcome to the Designer's Tavern! After switching owners twice before and undergoing some time-consuming renovations, the tavern is now in our capable hands. Who are we? That's a good question! We are HockeySam18 and Mr Wednesday, your benevolent oligarchs hosts! Established by SonicShadow in 2005, taken over by Matt LiVecchi in 2009, and passed on to Lord Basse in 2010, the tavern is a place for the SD&M community to sit down, relax and have a sip of an imaginary pint of ale. This is the place for general discussion on scenario design; talk about whatever you want as long as it's related to scenario design, downloads in the Blacksmith, and the like. If you want to say something totally unrelated to scenario design, the Town's Crier is a fine place to go to instead.



Seminars_on_Designing_and_Trigger Tricks

Have a new discovery you want to share with the world? A design trick, a good way to design a fortress, or a trigger system? Perhaps you feel the need to address what you think is a problem with designing? Contact us via email or post a reply with the article! It doesn't have to be something brand new, but it shouldn't be something of common knowledge either, like "A Guide on Painting Water on your Map" (though that can propagate some interesting discussion in of itself)! Write a paragraph or three, add a screenshot and send it off, and we'll make sure it gets up here.

Past seminars:


Designing a realistic forest, by HockeySam18

Current seminar:

Utilizing off-grid placement to its full potential, by Mr Wednesday




Off grid placement is the most powerful tool to come along since Data editing. I opened AoKTS three times when doing my PTC entry, compared to hundreds or thousands of times when doing The Quiet Dawn. While all the effects I used in Smile No More (and that screenshot) were technically possible before, the simple truth is no one would ever have done them. When covering the Asian monastery to get only the statue, I could select trees that had the exact shape as the outline of the statue (or close enough) and essentially just paint over the stuff I didn't want. To do that once with AoKTS would have taken probably a couple days. I did it in dozens of spots.

Designers haven't really picked up on the full power of this yet I don't think. AoK has always had a very limited set of graphics, and we use the closest approximation to represent everything we don't have.

Except now, people need to start thinking of all the graphics as just 2D images. If any part of a graphic can represent what you want, or any combination of parts, you can make it happen. In that screenshot, the obvious choice for a treehouse is the Outpost. The sea tower is the next thing you logically think of. But the best looking part might be the Archery range, which is a perfect example of using one quarter of a graphic or less, and essentially making the rest disappear.

The only thing that matters anymore is the front image essentially, which consists of whatever parts are showing from all the images.

I'd caution that 99% of this is depth perception, so watch the shadows, where the bases hit the terrain, etc. Make sure there isn't anything showing that breaks the illusions you are creating.



Playtesters and Other Requests:

Feel free to ask here, I will add your request to the topic post if it doesn't get fulfilled quickly. Go ahead and link your project thread as well if you like!



Help with AI Scripting for Custom Scenarios

For anyone struggling with AI scripting, this tool by Jan dc allows you to generate a competent AI tailored specifically to the needs of your custom scenario.



Current Projects and Screenshots:

We'd love to see screenshots and hear teasers from your current projects or whatever you've felt like working on. Feel free to post them and we'll start up a list below!

- Storm on the Steppe - by HockeySam18

- The Battle of Senc Tor - by Aristeides

- Wrath of the Traibs - by Possidon

- Aethelflaed Modification and Campaign - by Mash

- Paradise Lost Remastered - by Devastator

- Pirate's Treasure - by PresterJohn

- Barbarossa - the campaign - by Paul_TD



Tavern Staff:
Owners - HockeySam18 and Mr Wednesday
Patron and Resident Viking - Leif Ericson
President of the Board - Dead_End
Board Members - Popeychops and John the Late
Chef - Major Helper

"Hot" Barmaids:
Prester John
Miathemother

Menu:
Steak and ale pie
Rack of lamb
Grilled venison
Roasted iron boar
Spam
Vegetable medley
...

Drinks:
Glass of wine
Pint of ale
Bucket of ale
Tub of mead
Cider
Tea
Coffee
Guarana

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 07-27-2017 @ 08:49 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Nowhere
Squire
(id: NowhereT)
posted 08-17-15 01:18 PM CT (US)     316 / 1611       
Attack Move
OMG you're the best ♥

Failing that, I'll switch to patrol. Thanks both

Forummer of the Year, All in All Winner, Nicest Forummer, The Sebastien-Barbarossa Medal (FotY-2011)
Most Missed Forummer (FotY-2012)
Mithril Knight
Squire
posted 08-17-15 08:22 PM CT (US)     317 / 1611       
*plop*



Three guesses on what this scenario is about.

(And before you say something along the lines of "MOAR ELEVATION!", it's a flatland castle, not a hill or mountain one)

►►►►Mithril Knight◄◄◄◄
My Works
¡Viva México!
My Coat of Arms
Devious Dev
Official Professional Qualified Noob
(id: dragonslayermcmx)
posted 08-18-15 02:19 AM CT (US)     318 / 1611       
MOAR TERRAIN MIXING

Also, could the scenario be about samurais?

D E V A S T A T O R
Paradise Lost ~ Scored 1st in the ACSC12! ~ Voted Best Cinematic Scenario of 2013 ~ Official Rating: 4.7
Demon Town ~ Scored 1st in the HHC11! ~ "...as unique as an AoK scenario can get." - Panel ~ Official Rating: 4.2

Proud Member of BlackForestStudios
My AoE2 Youtube Channel
Mike Oxhard
Squire
(id: Arnas)
posted 08-18-15 05:06 AM CT (US)     319 / 1611       
C'mon guys, this is obviously about vikings and berserkers...

John the Late
Knight
posted 08-18-15 06:02 AM CT (US)     320 / 1611       
I would still rather stick to patrol with the corresponding trigger work Lildbehr posted, as I have attack move getting stuck (either units not moving, or not attacking at all, or both) at least once per game I play. Patrol might be slower in responding to enemies within sight, but at least it's reliable.
Nowhere
Squire
(id: NowhereT)
posted 08-18-15 07:27 AM CT (US)     321 / 1611       
Yes, I'm finding Attack Move triggers to be very unreliable. When they work, they're better than patrol. But that's not 100% of the time.

Forummer of the Year, All in All Winner, Nicest Forummer, The Sebastien-Barbarossa Medal (FotY-2011)
Most Missed Forummer (FotY-2012)
Fundey
Squire
posted 08-18-15 09:21 AM CT (US)     322 / 1611       
I realized I want to do something similar as Nowhere, but less exact: a group of Paladins spawns in one map corner (well, about 100-200 of them) and goes on a rampage through the map, attacking/destroying anything that belongs to the player along the way (not anything specific), will the patrol effect be sufficient for this? How responsive it is? (probably not much since Paladins have small LOS)

I have in mind about three groups of Paladins, each going in different direction, and stopping near/in players' bases, attacking there and not returning back. When I deactivate patrol trigger, will units stop immediately, continue the patrol forever, or end the current patrol tour and stop on the target location?

Anyway, Nowhere, thanks for the suggestions, I haven't thought about mixing feudal/castle/imperial buildings together
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-18-15 09:46 AM CT (US)     323 / 1611       
Nice screenshot, MK!


For the record, I've never had trouble with the Attack Move effect in HD. In previous patches units would sometimes freeze when you used the Attack Move command in a RM when the game was lagging due to someone's connection (usually mine ), but I have yet to see that happen on the 4.3 patch. HD also now has functional area parameters for Attack Move and patrol, making things easier. UserPatch also has this for patrol.

The problem with patrol is obviously that units will start walking away from the fight if they don't see anything to target, and then you have to wait for them to return. There are trigger systems that can help you avoid this, but they tend to be a little clunky. Make sure you use area parameters for the secondary patrol/attack move effects in the trigger system - in 1.0c and HD, a patrol/attack move effect will sometimes not fire if some of the units it has selected have been killed. UserPatch tried to fix this by rerouting the IDs in the effect of units that had been killed, but this is unreliable and often causes the game to crash. I had this issue several times when translating the Great Emperor scenario 'The Last Bastion' and trying to make it compatible with both 1.0c and UP, and eventually had to just delete all of the continually patrolled saboteurs in the UP version.

What problems are you experiencing, Nowhere?
I realized I want to do something similar as Nowhere, but less exact: a group of Paladins spawns in one map corner (well, about 100-200 of them) and goes on a rampage through the map, attacking/destroying anything that belongs to the player along the way (not anything specific), will the patrol effect be sufficient for this? How responsive it is? (probably not much since Paladins have small LOS)

I have in mind about three groups of Paladins, each going in different direction, and stopping near/in players' bases, attacking there and not returning back. When I deactivate patrol trigger, will units stop immediately, continue the patrol forever, or end the current patrol tour and stop on the target location?
It seems like an AI might work better for what you have in mind. This one by Lord Basse would probably help

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Al_Kharn the Great
Squire
posted 08-18-15 04:16 PM CT (US)     324 / 1611       
The economic multiplayer idea spawned another idea. Why not use the market economy as the basis of the game? Have an AI player buy and sell resources putting price shocks in the economy. For example, at random intervals, a message might go to all players that development in China has increased the demand for wood and stone and the AI buys a ton of wood and stone increasing prices, benefiting players investing in accumulating those resources. If there's no demand and prices fall (ai selling resources), players could find themselves in dire straights or double down and buy cheap. This will add another dimension besides human players manipulating the market. Players will have to time their buying and selling right to have victory by accumulating say 100K gold.

The question is would players be interested in an RP multiplayer game focused entirely on gathering resources and selling them on the market to reach a gold level?

[This message has been edited by Al_Kharn the Great (edited 08-18-2015 @ 04:22 PM).]

John the Late
Knight
posted 08-18-15 04:50 PM CT (US)     325 / 1611       
That mechanic an amazing idea. I wouldn't make a multiplayer map centered entirely on economics, but I think your idea could also be incorporated into other maps...
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-18-15 05:20 PM CT (US)     326 / 1611       
Indeed, that's a great idea. Funnily enough, I've been designing something that works in a somewhat related way:

In Galderton, the player controlling the central city will in all likelihood be heavily reliant from the start on a large trade line to obtain gold. Shortages of other resources will require the player to use the market to buy other resources, while most other players would instead need to sell other resources for gold. The end result should be an interesting situation where the market prices swing back and forth as the players fulfill their respective needs.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 08-18-15 07:31 PM CT (US)     327 / 1611       
One thing we're having fun balancing is the amount of stone the main city holds. They have to make 4 wonders so getting 4k stone is a big ask for them!

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Nowhere
Squire
(id: NowhereT)
posted 08-19-15 01:57 AM CT (US)     328 / 1611       
What problems are you experiencing, Nowhere?
Units still don't attack walls, and sometimes the triggers' areas and locations disappear and I have no idea why!

Forummer of the Year, All in All Winner, Nicest Forummer, The Sebastien-Barbarossa Medal (FotY-2011)
Most Missed Forummer (FotY-2012)
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-19-15 08:38 AM CT (US)     329 / 1611       
Units still don't attack walls
Enemy units will only attack walls if they're specifically tasked to do so (task object effect) or if you use a custom AI that commands the units to attack. The Immobile-Aggressive AI by Lord Basse could help here, or alternatively you could use Jan dc's AI Builder to make yourself one rather quickly.
sometimes the triggers' areas and locations disappear and I have no idea why!
This is an annoying issue, and it occurs from time to time regardless of game version. Which effects in particular? Whenever I have this issue, I just save the scenario, exit the game, and then load the scenario again and it usually works fine.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Nowhere
Squire
(id: NowhereT)
posted 08-19-15 08:52 AM CT (US)     330 / 1611       
This is an annoying issue, and it occurs from time to time regardless of game version. Which effects in particular?
Task object and attack move have been the main offenders (the only two I have used much that require both area and location to be set). Sometimes the areas disappear from the trigger's "memory", sometimes they seem to revert to the area/location of a different trigger. I blooming hate bug fixing haha!

Ooh I'll try Lord Basse's AI, I didn't realise walls were usually ignored. Cheers Sam.

Forummer of the Year, All in All Winner, Nicest Forummer, The Sebastien-Barbarossa Medal (FotY-2011)
Most Missed Forummer (FotY-2012)
Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 08-19-15 09:01 AM CT (US)     331 / 1611       
I've had it happen to change object name, HP, attack as well. In fact, a common bug is that the trigger will default to changing the attribute of all GAIA units on the map, which is almost always more than 300, resulting in a CTD.

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile

[This message has been edited by Popeychops (edited 08-19-2015 @ 09:01 AM).]

HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-19-15 09:43 AM CT (US)     332 / 1611       
Task object and attack move have been the main offenders (the only two I have used much that require both area and location to be set). Sometimes the areas disappear from the trigger's "memory", sometimes they seem to revert to the area/location of a different trigger. I blooming hate bug fixing haha!
Ah, I had a hunch. You have to set the location before the area, otherwise the area (or sometimes both!) will not register.
Ooh I'll try Lord Basse's AI, I didn't realise walls were usually ignored. Cheers Sam.
AIs are powerful tools - in certain situations a good AI can accomplish what would otherwise require systems on systems of triggers.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Nowhere
Squire
(id: NowhereT)
posted 08-19-15 10:01 AM CT (US)     333 / 1611       
You have to set the location before the area, otherwise the area (or sometimes both!) will not register.
OMG you're amazing Sam, that will save me a lot of stress haha!

AI scripting has always interested me but it just looks so darned complicated! Hopefully Lord Basse's will sort it out, because the walls that the computer is ignoring are built by the player over the course of the game, so triggering is not easy (or maybe even possible!).

Forummer of the Year, All in All Winner, Nicest Forummer, The Sebastien-Barbarossa Medal (FotY-2011)
Most Missed Forummer (FotY-2012)

[This message has been edited by Nowhere (edited 08-19-2015 @ 10:02 AM).]

HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-19-15 10:28 AM CT (US)     334 / 1611       
Scripting an AI that plays RM properly can be very difficult. For scenarios it can actually be rather simple, as you can tailor it to a specific situation and use the ever-helpful resource cheats to keep its eco up. I made myself a custom scenario AI template a couple years ago that I continually update as I learn more about AI scripting. With the template at my disposal, all that I usually need to do is tweak several values, constants, and definers to get a unique AI for every scenario I design. Having the "foundation" there already speeds things up quite a bit

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
DarkPaladinX
Squire
posted 08-19-15 10:13 PM CT (US)     335 / 1611       
Has anyone noticed a bug on the recent patch for Age of Empires II HD in regards to the "difficulty level" condition in triggers. For some reason, the "difficulty level" condition does not work for me. I'm creating the first scenario of my campaign (total going to be 8 scenarios) where the enemy units will have largely boost stats when playing on the Hard difficulty. When I test the scenario out on "standard" difficulty, the enemies were given the said boosted stats because these stats are only supposed to be boosted on "Hard" difficulty (I was messing around with the change HP and attack effects here).

I also confirmed this on a test scenario where I placed a Knight unit and had triggers where it upgrades to a Cavalier in Moderate, and Paladin on Hard difficulty. When I playtested it on Standard, the knight was immediately upgraded into a Paladin, despite having my triggers set that it only happens on Hard difficulty.
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-19-15 10:26 PM CT (US)     336 / 1611       
That's how the difficulty trigger conditions always have been (whether in CD or HD). When you set a difficulty level in that condition, it will fire on that difficulty or any difficulty below it. So if you select "Hard" it will fire if you play on hard, moderate, or standard. Selecting "Moderate" will cause it to fire if playing on moderate or standard. Selecting "Standard" will cause it to fire on standard (and technically easiest as well, but you can only select hard, moderate, or standard when playing a custom campaign, so there's no point in triggering for hardest or easiest).

Things would be a lot more clear in that condition if, when selecting a difficulty, it said [difficulty level] (or easier)

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Nowhere
Squire
(id: NowhereT)
posted 08-20-15 01:01 AM CT (US)     337 / 1611       
That still doesn't explain DarkPaladinX's knight problem - the unit should only be upgraded to paladin on the "hard" setting but is upgrading even when playing at "standard" difficulty. Correct me if I've misinterpreted it, DarkPaladinX!

Forummer of the Year, All in All Winner, Nicest Forummer, The Sebastien-Barbarossa Medal (FotY-2011)
Most Missed Forummer (FotY-2012)
BF_Tanks
Squire
posted 08-20-15 05:56 AM CT (US)     338 / 1611       
What a horrible trigger.

Proud Member of Black Forest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil - Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009
and The Seas of Egressa - Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-20-15 09:41 AM CT (US)     339 / 1611       
It does, though - if you set the difficulty condition to check for hard, it fires on moderate and standard as well, hence the enemy paladin being upgraded on standard even though it's only supposed to be upgraded on hard. Perhaps my phrasing was too confusing

There are two methods that I usually use to work around this problem:

Method 1: Create a trigger system where the difficulty bonuses stack. I most often do this when I want the player's units to be upgraded more on easier difficulties, or when I want to remove enemy units/buildings on easier difficulties (or both). Essentially, I design the map as it would appear and play on hard, so you need no "Hard" difficulty trigger. Then I create two triggers - one for moderate, and one for standard. As an example, the moderate trigger researches all Castle Age Blacksmith techs for the player while removing all enemy Bombard Towers and Siege Onagers. The standard trigger researches all Imperial Age Blacksmith techs for the player and removes all enemy Guard Towers and Heavy Scorpions.

When you test the scenario on hard, neither of the triggers will fire, so the map will play as you designed it. On moderate the moderate trigger will fire, and on standard both the moderate and the standard triggers will fire, so the bonuses stack.

Method 2: Create three triggers for difficulty, in this order: standard, moderate, hard (it is critical that standard is above moderate and moderate is above hard in the order in the trigger list because the higher triggers in the trigger list fire first. Hard deactivates moderate and standard. Moderate deactivates standard and hard. Standard deactivates moderate and hard. With those specifications met, you can completely customize your scenario with three entirely different and independent difficulty levels.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 08-20-2015 @ 01:44 PM).]

John the Late
Knight
posted 08-20-15 10:02 AM CT (US)     340 / 1611       
You have to set the location before the area, otherwise the area (or sometimes both!) will not register.
I always set them from top down so area before location and it always works. :s If I set location before area then when I set an area the location resets quite often.
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-20-15 10:12 AM CT (US)     341 / 1611       
Perhaps one of the recent versions of UserPatch finally fixed that issue. If so, then I'm absolutely delighted - that bug is a real pain in the rear

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
Julius999
Imposter
posted 08-20-15 12:49 PM CT (US)     342 / 1611       
Isn't your method 2 the wrong way around?

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-20-15 01:42 PM CT (US)     343 / 1611       
Ah, good catch, thanks

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
DarkPaladinX
Squire
posted 08-20-15 08:23 PM CT (US)     344 / 1611       
Method 2: Create three triggers for difficulty, in this order: standard, moderate, hard (it is critical that standard is above moderate and moderate is above hard in the order in the trigger list because the higher triggers in the trigger list fire first. Hard deactivates moderate and standard. Moderate deactivates standard and hard. Standard deactivates moderate and hard. With those specifications met, you can completely customize your scenario with three entirely different and independent difficulty levels.
So in order for this to work, I will have to have three separate triggers where the triggers disable each other in each difficulty and have them ordered something like "Standard", "Moderate", and "Hard." Thanks, it somewhat works. I manage to get the hard difficulty enemy bonuses not trigger in standard and moderate. However, when it comes to the moderate difficulty enemy bonuses, the moderate difficulty ones STILL trigger on standard. I'm not sure what I did wrong or if my setup is wrong. Here is my trigger setup (in list order) and I'm wondering what I was doing wrong.

Trigger1: Standard no enemy bonuses
Condition1: Difficulty Level: Standard
Effect: Disable Trigger: Moderate enemy bonuses
Effect: Disable Trigger: Hard enemy bonuses

The enemies do not get neither of the moderate nor hard difficulty bonuses here, but the enemy for some reason manages to get the moderate difficulty bonuses despite having the moderate trigger disabled. I noticed it when the bandits ended up getting pikemen and long swordsmen (this is supposed to trigger in moderate and above only) despite the fact that the units are supposed to be spearmen and man-at-arms respectfully at this difficulty level

Trigger2: Moderate enemy bonuses
Condition1: Difficulty Level: Moderate
Effect: Disable Trigger: Standard no enemy bonuses
Effect: Disable Trigger: Hard enemy bonuses

The rest of the effects are bunch of tech researched that boost units stats in this level, units upgraded (the bandit faction have pikeman and longswordsman upgrades in this difficulty level. Otherwise, most of their units are spearmen and man-at-arms at standard)

Trigger3: Hard enemy bonuses
Condition1: Difficulty Level: Hard
Effect: Disable Trigger: Standard no enemy bonuses
Effect: Disable Trigger: Moderate enemy bonuses

The rest of the effects are bunch of tech researched that boost units stats in this level, +20 HP, +1 attack, more unit upgrades (a faction called "yellow fang gang" have champion upgrade difficulty. In addition, the bandits have heavy cavalry archer upgrade in this difficulty in addition to the pikeman and long swordsman difficulty. Otherwise, the units are normally two-handed swordsmen and cavalry archer respectfully at moderate and below), and even more techs researched exclusively at hard.

[This message has been edited by DarkPaladinX (edited 08-20-2015 @ 08:27 PM).]

HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-20-15 09:26 PM CT (US)     345 / 1611       
Double check that the standard trigger is indeed deactivating the moderate trigger. If it's above the moderate trigger in the trigger list and deactivates it, and the method is working fine with deactivating the hard trigger, then there's no reason it shouldn't be working for disabling the moderate trigger as well.

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
DarkPaladinX
Squire
posted 08-20-15 10:22 PM CT (US)     346 / 1611       
I decided to send an email about this to you HockeySam18 and I'm sure you can figure out what is going on. But regardless, do you think the order on when I created the trigger players a role in this in addition to the ordering (I've created the standard and hard difficulty triggers after I've created the moderate triggers when I was messing around with difficulty levels, then I decided to reorganize the trigger order in the list)?
HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-20-15 11:19 PM CT (US)     347 / 1611       
Ah, that's the issue. Recreate them in the proper order (without moving them around in the list) and you'll be all set

I'll have a look at your email tomorrow, it's getting a little late here atm

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 08-20-2015 @ 11:21 PM).]

BF_Tanks
Squire
posted 08-21-15 03:12 AM CT (US)     348 / 1611       
Sam's "Method 2" for how to handle the difficulty triggers is how I'd go about it. Good suggestion.

Proud Member of Black Forest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil - Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009
and The Seas of Egressa - Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
Mike Oxhard
Squire
(id: Arnas)
posted 08-21-15 03:20 AM CT (US)     349 / 1611       
EDIT

[This message has been edited by Arnas (edited 08-21-2015 @ 03:21 AM).]

HockeySam18
Dúnadan
posted 08-27-15 11:22 AM CT (US)     350 / 1611       
I've had a few ideas run through my head for future projects, so I want to start a quick discussion about designing B&D scenarios.

They've frustrated me as a designer for several years because of how difficult they are to balance. You can generally present the player with a challenging (usually inferior) position early on where they have to struggle to survive and build up under pressure, but inevitably you reach a point in the game where you're so secure in your position that there's really no danger of losing. At that point, it's just a matter of time until you systematically dismantle the enemy base. Scenarios like Halfdan and Rockspring Revolution were good at avoiding this for at least a good part of the scenario (and longer than most scenarios), but eventually in each you still run into the same issue (especially in Halfdan where the two final AIs you have to defeat only defend and don't attack, which was a design flaw imo).

At that point, what I've generally done is design the enemy bases so they're hard to take (make the AI put up a furious defense as well) and give them infinite resources so that there's a sense of urgency (if you run out of gold and haven't done enough damage then their counter-push can be deadly). That can provide a sufficient challenge, but it's important to find the fine line between challenging and unnecessarily frustrating.

My favorite B&D scenario setting is a situation where you're restricted to Castle Age but fighting against a more advanced enemy. You can either put them in Imperial Age, or you can choose a civ/unit combo that inherently counters that of the player (i.e. Goths vs archer civs). The player has an opportunity to obtain advanced weaponry in small amounts through sidequests (for example granting the capped and siege ram upgrades, or the chemistry upgrade, or getting a treb every once in a while after the quests are completed). Due to this disadvantaged situation the player is forced to think outside of the box and take tactical engagements instead of ingloriously spamming troops from tons of military buildings (which reminds me, limiting the player's military buildings/building space is also an option). Victory is elusive, but not impossible, and just when you seem to be getting the upper hand you can put an event in place that provides a dosage of adversity. Through triggers and AI you can try to create situations like those that one might face when fighting a tactically capable human player.

I'd like to hear what people think of that model, and any advice on designing B&Ds as well. What works and what doesn't, in your experiences?

Storm on the Steppe | Galderton Hill RP | Proud member of Stormwind Studios

"Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies of one who has done well." - Hávamál

"Hockey is the only sport left for true men." - ax_man1
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