You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Town's Crier
Moderated by Popeychops, Major Helper, Lord Sipia

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.57 replies
Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Town's Crier » Pope Pope I: The Religion Thread
Bottom
Topic Subject:Pope Pope I: The Religion Thread
« Previous Page  1 2 3  Next Page »
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 01-18-19 08:43 PM CT (US)         
Believe it or not, I'm not actually talking about battleship thighs!

I think, within reason, we can have an honest--and civil--discussion about faith. Not about politics, or what have you... to actually discuss our beliefs and maybe answer genuine questions from people who want to know more. It might help us think about our beliefs in ways we hadn't before.

But some ground rules.
1. Please be civil. Please. This is a touchy subject.
2. Ask questions in good faith. Not, "Why do learned people subject themselves to stone age myths" or troll shit like that.
3. No holy wars. It's one thing to declare something a heresy. Another to try to launch an inquisition.
4. If you have nothing polite and constructive say, please don't say whatever's left over here.
5. All are welcome. To listen, to discuss... believer and non-believer and the just unsure.

And yes, Moff is actually fairly religious. It's a recent development, hence my very tentative approach here. And if we can't keep this a pleasant discussion, I will not hesitate to request this thread closed.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Kousoku Senkan Moffgou (edited 01-18-2019 @ 08:44 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 02-26-19 09:24 PM CT (US)     51 / 57       
Ah. Read Ecclesiastes.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 04-27-19 04:44 AM CT (US)     52 / 57       
I'm starting to think that Christianity, and specifically Christianity, has been a force of good more than it has been a force of evil.

Take, for instance, the commonly cited historical moment that people take as evidence of the violence of organized Christianity, the Spanish conquest of the Americas.

Conquistadors and their soldiers were often, if not generally, rough men of low social standing, come to gain the land, wealth and status that would be denied them in the Old World; that is to say, material gain. Their brutal expeditions were sanctioned by the Spanish crown in part in the name of bringing Christianity to the indigenous peoples, that is true. But I think such men would have embarked on their rampages and the monarchs of a burgeoning militaristic, expansionist state as Spain was at the time would have found another way to justify conquests of rich new lands if there had been no Christiantiy.

Now consider the cases of deeply pious men like Bartomolé de las Casas who tirelessly championed for the wellbeing of the indigenous people of the Americas and denounced the excesses of the conquistadors, and how his petitions reached the Catholic Monarchs of Spain and prompted them to pass a series of laws trying (with little success) to curb the cruelty of their own colonists towards the indigenous. I have to ask myself, if Christian values had been taken away in that context, would the same have happened? Call me cynical but I doubt it.

[This message has been edited by Neochud (edited 04-27-2019 @ 04:45 AM).]

Lord Sipia
Knight
posted 04-27-19 09:05 AM CT (US)     53 / 57       
But I think such men would have embarked on their rampages and the monarchs of a burgeoning militaristic, expansionist state as Spain was at the time would have found another way to justify conquests of rich new lands if there had been no Christiantiy.
They might've found some excuse or another. Possibly. You can't really know one way or the other, which is why historians don't waste too much time on could haves and maybes. What we do know is that the guise of giving the natives 'enlightenment' (not that they would ever be considered deserving anyhow, racial prejudice and all) worked like a charm. Furthermore, you shouldn't paint Christianity as an innocent religion abused by exploiters; though I don't recall the exact passage off the top of my head, it does say in Deuteronomy that if you encounter a (supposedly) inferior, unenlightened society, you should forcibly erase their culture and replace it with your own-- which is exactly what conquistadors and colonists did.

"You can't open up the story of my life and just go to page 738 and think you know me."
--Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson (on judging people by their Google search history)

"It's hard to have an existential crisis when everything is so pretty."
--Dan "Danny Sexbang" Avidan
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 04-27-19 07:11 PM CT (US)     54 / 57       
which is why historians don't waste too much time on could haves and maybes
Actually, when historians try to figure out the driving factors behind historical events and processes and weight their importance, that's exactly what they're doing.
What we do know is that the guise of giving the natives 'enlightenment' (not that they would ever be considered deserving anyhow, racial prejudice and all) worked like a charm.
Not really. The main thing that worked to push the conquistadors to go on their expeditions was the promise of material gain in lands and gold. They pursued this goal so viciously that they frequently fought amongst themselves for the richest prizes.

As for the guise, non-Christian empires had no problem justifying their expansion, and the absence of notions of a united Christendom or Christian values surely made it no harder...

[This message has been edited by Neochud (edited 04-27-2019 @ 07:14 PM).]

Popeychops
"Cool" Huskarl
posted 04-29-19 10:07 AM CT (US)     55 / 57       
I am very cautious about discussing "good" and "bad" forms of colonialism, because all colonies primarily exist to extract value from the colony to the benefit of the coloniser.

Any "white man's burden" is of secondary importance. That's why "the white man's burden" is different to humanitarian action

Member of BlackForest Studios
Co-creator of Silent Evil (4.6) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2009 (Most Fave'd Multiplayer Scenario)
and The Seas of Egressa (4.8) Voted Best Multiplayer Scenario of 2010
"Popey just hates everywhere." - Chocolate Jesus, on my fear of Romanian organ-traffickers
"Hooray for Dear Leader-Comrade-Generalissimo-Presidente-Lord Protector Popey!" - Lord Sipia, on my benevolent, iron-fisted rule
"You're not Popeychops; you don't get to physics." - Moff, in response to a clumsy muon simile
Neochud
Squire
(id: Taichud)
posted 04-29-19 04:11 PM CT (US)     56 / 57       
Colonies in their modern, exploitative sense are generally no good. My point was, however, that the Spaniards were not fundamentally driven to subjugate the Americas due to religion.

I should note that the Spaniards did not develop colonies in the 19th Century sense. Their approach was quite medieval, creating a quasi-feudal social and political structure in the Americas.

Nor was white man's burden a concept back then, when race was still defined by lineage and religion rather than by biology and European civilization was not yet considered by the Europeans themselves as the highest form of civilization. In fact, they almost certainly didn't even have the same idea of what civilization is.

There was an arrogant paternalism on the part of some Spaniards towards the indigenous ('innocent lambs' calls them Bertolomé de las Casas) and outright hatred towards them as savage heathens from others, but the nauseating racial categorization of 19th Century colonialism was still centuries away.

Not that any of this justifies the cruelties of Spanish colonists and their successors towards the indigenous throughout the colonial period. Once again, it should be remembered however that the Spanish monarchs protected indigenous communities in resguardos, giving them certain privileges but also subjecting them to direct taxation. Nevertheless, the indigenous were the most stubborn defenders of the Spanish crown in the Wars of Independence, forming the very backbone of resistance to the criollo rebels.

[This message has been edited by Neochud (edited 04-29-2019 @ 06:37 PM).]

Uchuu Senkan Yamoffo
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 08-12-19 05:55 PM CT (US)     57 / 57       


Hmph. So wise.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
« Previous Page  1 2 3  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Kings Heaven | HeavenGames