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Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » General and Strategy Discussion » Ripping off Spirit of the Law: Japanese edition.
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Topic Subject:Ripping off Spirit of the Law: Japanese edition.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 09-30-19 11:38 AM CT (US)         
You know, it just hit me. Those who know me, are probably familiar with my "Spirit of the Law-esque" civilization analysis. However, ironically, one of the civilizations I never analysed... Is preciselly his favourite civilization, the Japanese.

This gives me a opportunity, doesnt it? A opportunity to exert my sweet, sweet revenge... On the man who destroyed my opportunity to become famous by thinking up of this gimmick before I ever could... Yes. I shall, on purpose, give terrible grades to his favourite all time civilization, so that he knows how it is to feel-

Nah, just kidding. I am not some kind of comedic relief cartoon villain or something, to come up with a plan this petty. Besides, I like the Japanese. Nah, I might just murder him on his sleep or something. But on this overview, I will be as fair as possible:

Infantry: A( Japanese Champions and Halberdiers are, debatably, the most population-effective in the game, at their respective intended roles. Although Gothic champions are more cost-effective and Slavic Champions, with Druzhina, can defeat Japanese champions once the numbers go past a certain point, the Japanese have good measures to handle both( Namelly, Hand Cannoneers, usually with Champions or Samurai backing then up when against the Goths because you can never take your chances with Huskarls ). Also, Druzhina is only relevant on the v,ery late game anyway; The Japanese Men-At-Arms rushes are some of the best the game has to offer.

It is worth bringing up, however, that it appears, based on the sources I could find, that on the next expansion a new tech, called "Supplies" will be included, that decreases the cost of militia-line infantry by 15 food, and that will be avaliable to every civilization EXCEPT THE GOTHS. It is likely that this will greatly increase the effectiveness of Japanese infantry against Gothic infantry, though I dont know if it will make Japanese champions flat out cost-effective against Gothic ones, and I wouldnt be able to tell without plaiyng and testing the next expansion.

Something that is worth calling attention to is the difference between Champions and Samurai. As they both occupy very similar niches, you should usually fully upgrade one or the other, but not both. Samurai move faster, are slightly bulkier, and attack slightly faster. They have a +10 attack bonus against other unique units, but dont be too overconfident about it: While it is true Samurai can shred their way through the likes of Huskarls, Berserkers etc., a lot of unique units are ranged, and you may find the Samurai surprisingly useless against then in massed combats. It is better to think of the Samurai as a improved version of the Champion... That costs 10 more gold. It doesnt sound like much, but on pratice, it is a 50% increase on the gold investiment.

Regardless of that, Samurai are usually worth it to use instead of Champions on team games and any other situation where gold is abundant. )

Cavalry: C+( The "plus" is here because, during the Feudal and Castle age, the Japanese have great cavalry rushes. Alas, they lack crucial Imperial Age techs that mmake cavalry impratical to be used there. The lack of Paladins and Hussars I might have forgiven: But the lack of Plate Barding Armor is usually too much. It can have circunstancial usage against siege, but dont count on then on the late game. )

Archers: B+( There isnt much exceptional against then, but they arent bad either. The Japanese, like many other civilizations, tend to rely on a combination of infantry and archers on the late game. Hand Cannoneers are particularly usefull to give a edge against civs which can outclass your infantry, and Skirmishers are a solid archer counter in a civilization that thirsts for then. )

Siege: B( It is not terrible but it is nothing special either. Their "Kataparuto" tech makes Trebuchets much less clumsy to use, but their siege units see little usage against infantry. Do not forget, though, that their Onagers are debatably the best counters they have against massed Hand Cannoneers. )

Navy: B+( Tech-wise, they only lack Heavy Demolition Ships, which frankly isnt really important. Eco-wise, their fast advance to the Feudal Age gives then a head start on Galley production on the early game. )

Monks: B+( They lack only Heresy, which is arguably more of a minus for your cavalry then your monks. And the Japanese cavalry has worse things to worry about then the lack of Heresy anyway. )

Defenses: B( This might seem like a little bit of a high grade to give, but I would like to point out that, while it is true the Japanese lack several important upgrades, almost every single one of then is a Imperial Age upgrade. If you have arrived to the Imperial Age as the Japanese and your top priority is researching defensive technologies, you are probably doing something wrong. And this is coming out from -Me-The guy who freely admits that he often waits until the Imperial Age before shifting to the offensive( Though with the Japanese I am more agressive ).

Economy: A( On pure land maps, their economy starts out astonishingly good but it soon falls into mediocrity. Still, their ability to rush to the Feudal Age faster then most civilizations, with rare exceptions( Like the Malay and, depending on how they are played, the Khmer ) is usefull, especially for more agressive playyers.

On water maps, their fishing bonus lets then keep a economical bonus through the entire game, though it is hard to take full advantage of it. After all, you-Need-To keep control of the waters in order to use it, as it is not as easy to protect Fishing Boats as it is to protect Villagers on land. )
AuthorReplies:
ArcherHombre
Squire
posted 10-09-19 08:52 PM CT (US)     1 / 4       
Thank you for organizing and sharing your thoughts on the subject! I tend to play with random civs, but I do all the stuff you mention here. I think that any pocket player (arabia, team games) should go knights regardless of the efficacy of the knight line in imp age for that civ.

For some reason it is slipping my mind about the Japanese early eco, other than the 50-wood collection buildings. Do you think that adds up to make a great early-game difference?

I vaguely remember hearing something about an infantry tech, but that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps that will be in the Definitive Edition. I'm a little intimidated by it because I like the Goths and giving everyone else a way to get cheaper infantry weakens the Goths in my opinion.
The Battler
Squire
posted 10-10-19 12:07 PM CT (US)     2 / 4       
For some reason it is slipping my mind about the Japanese early eco, other than the 50-wood collection buildings. Do you think that adds up to make a great early-game difference?
It's actually a great early game bonus. In the Dark Age, 4 Houses, a Mil, and a Lumber Camp are basically mandatory on most maps and the Japanese are the only ones who can do it with their starting Wood; Huns, Persians, and Incas still need to gather 100, 50, and 50 Wood respectively.
I vaguely remember hearing something about an infantry tech, but that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps that will be in the Definitive Edition. I'm a little intimidated by it because I like the Goths and giving everyone else a way to get cheaper infantry weakens the Goths in my opinion.
Yeah, it's gonna be in DE. It's called "Supplies" and will lower the Militia line Food cost by 15, and is available in Feudal.

I think they'll tweak the Goth bonus a little bit to make up for it.
Draco_Wolfgand
Squire
posted 10-10-19 12:52 PM CT (US)     3 / 4       
FRANKLY, I dont think it will be necessary. To... Tweak the Gothic bonus, that is.

Since Supplies, for what I can see, affects only the militia-line, they will still have the most cost-effective Halberdiers in the game. Their Champions would also still be the cheaper in the game, and cost-effective against just about everyone except, maybe, the civilizations that already get a infantry bonus, and will get Supplies on top of it( Like the Japanese. )

We will only be able to test for sure once the tech comes out, of course. But the main point is, do the Goths really need to have the best Champion in the game?

EDIT: On a secound thought, however, some unique infantry units may have to be buffed. I mean, if the Viking Champion were to cost only 45 food and 20 gold while the Berseker cost remained the same, who would still train Bersekers?

[This message has been edited by Draco_Wolfgand (edited 10-10-2019 @ 04:16 PM).]

The Battler
Squire
posted 10-12-19 01:23 AM CT (US)     4 / 4       
Yeah, so that's the idea.

It makes sense for Infantry UUs to get their costs tweaked, too, ESPECIALLY the Champion-like UUs like Serks or Woads. That'll be worse for the Goths.

The Burmese and Slavs, who have Champion-related bonuses but no Infantry UU, already counter Husks/Halbs pretty well and will probably be able to push back Goth Champs, too, if they get Supplies and Goths don't.
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